What a fucked up world

[blue rider]

Morphine patches? Why not intravenous Morphine pump? I have seen three to through this and they all had pumps that were adjusted to suit. In this recent case of our dear friend though, the pain specialist sai Smorphine was the wrong choice and switched her to Methodone which immediately brought the pain down to manageable levels. Similar with my daughter recently though she didn't die, it took three days to find a type of Morphine that would work. Heart wrenching to watch. Not everyone can have the same for the same effect and in my own experience Morphine patches only work to a point.

She died at home, she could keep absolutly nothing in her body, and everything leaving her had her in screams, as for veins.....my sister is a nurse and she could not find anything to put a needle in. the weight of my mother was around 35 kgs when she died, she was approx 1.68 m tall.

There are moments Ed when no matter what, letting someone go is the right thing to do, and letting someone go before they loose their spirit, their pride, their humanity might be painful for the survivors but it is still the right thing to do.

If dr. can keep someone for weeks doped out on intravenous morphine, they might as well just administer the little bit too much and let the family decide when it is time, and not have everyone wait in despair for the drugged up and empty shell of a body finally giving out.

[Edbear]

What ?,,youthinasia,,,yeah the old guy in the rest home didn't really know what they were talking about either.

Odd that the article only appeared a couple of days ago and you now claim not to know anything about it.
When you always know about everything else,,,very odd if you ask me.

I don't lie. I do not read the Herald except on occasion if there is nothing else in a waiting room. I never read the article you refer to. Sometimes people speak of their own knowledge and their own mind...

[short-circuit]

Sometimes people speak of their own knowledge and their own mind...

This'll be good.....

[mashman]

Suicides in the elderly are becoming more common, many of whom pre-empt a perceived inability to make that decision. It’s not that they’ve reached any particular point where they feel they don’t want to live, but that they foresee the time approaching where that choice may be taken from them. In such cases it’s sobering to consider how many years may be taken from them by laws preventing others from helping them die with grace at a time of their choosing.

Laws forbidding suicide are pointless but ultimately harmless as they are treated with the contempt they deserve. Laws forbidding people from helping those perfectly capable of making the decision but unable to physically manage it are evil.

Sums it up perfectly, especially the loss of years.

so... you're a glass half empty kinda guy?

Sorry. We're all going to live forever... better? just another fact of life

[Edbear]

She died at home, she could keep absolutly nothing in her body, and everything leaving her had her in screams, as for veins.....my sister is a nurse and she could not find anything to put a needle in. the weight of my mother was around 35 kgs when she died, she was approx 1.68 m tall.

There are moments Ed when no matter what, letting someone go is the right thing to do, and letting someone go before they loose their spirit, their pride, their humanity might be painful for the survivors but it is still the right thing to do.

If dr. can keep someone for weeks doped out on intravenous morphine, they might as well just administer the little bit too much and let the family decide when it is time, and not have everyone wait in despair for the drugged up and empty shell of a body finally giving out.

That's tough. In my case all my veins gradually collapsed and they were startling to get desperate as to where they could tap into. It has taken two years for them to recover enough that they can take a blood test normally but the last infusion I had was a bit of a mission for the Doc. The nurse gave up and called him in.

The overdose method is used more often than let on...

[Edbear]

An interesting ethical argument is brought about. By the fact that modern medical science can postpone death by direct intervention. ie: a person that would normally die, can be kept alive. Is it then a case of killing someone if allowing them to die by withdrawing the means of keeping them alive? Is it killing someone by trying to make their inevitable death as painless as possible?

These are the issues politicians and medical people are wrestling with.

[Ocean1]

These are the issues politicians and medical people are wrestling with.

In spite of the fact that they are issues over which they have no ethical jurisdiction whatsoever.

[Zamiam]

To my way of thinking if we allow the state to tell us what we can do with ourselves then what have we got left?

I watched my farther die of cancer a few years ago. He was a strong proud man and the loss of dignity was the hardest thing for all of us to live with. Both my brother and I promised him that if it got too much for him he only had to ask. Would I have done it? Too bloody right. I loved my old man that much. Thankfully it didn't get to that. I suspect, and thank her with all my heart, that when it go so bad a certain nurse upped his morphine so he slipped away.

[blue rider]

An interesting ethical argument is brought about. By the fact that modern medical science can postpone death by direct intervention. ie: a person that would normally die, can be kept alive. Is it then a case of killing someone if allowing them to die by withdrawing the means of keeping them alive? Is it killing someone by trying to make their inevitable death as painless as possible?

These are the issues politicians and medical people are wrestling with.

as a sprirtual person Ed, is it responsible to keep a 'body' alive when it passed its used by date? how are we killing someone,who otherwise would have died, and in many cases with less pain.

the ethical question should be is it human (menschlich) to keep someone alive at all costs. This is the question that needs to be answered.

and quite frankly politicians wrestle with nothing (they are made of teflon, nothing sticks) and doctors are not going to do or say anything that might make the liable to criminal prosecution (correct term?)


it is society that needs to understand that some just do not wish to live, and that this is their choice. those that can make their own end will do so, those that cant will ask for help.

in any case we don't have to walk a day in their shoes, and we should not judge them, nor condemn them to undue pain and suffering.

we don't have to understand nor like the decision, we only have to respect it.

[Edbear]

In spite of the fact that they are issues over which they have no ethical jurisdiction whatsoever.

Trouble is, who then decides what ethical standard to use? There is so much room for abuse. I think the medical proffessionals are in the best position to judge what is the medical situation regarding how much is in preventing or prolonging inevitable death but there needs to be a strong consensus of qualified opinion backed by medical study first. That is probably the only way of determining what constitutes killing in such a case.

If not the government then who decides the guidelines? We know that in most cases the MP's consult with the experts in order to make decisions, and there is enough of this happening to know it is real despite what people may perceive as unilateral law making. This may be true at times but not in this case I would think.

[Ocean1]

Trouble is, who then decides what ethical standard to use?

Depends, Ed. If it's my life we're talking about then I do.

It really is that simple.

[Edbear]

as a sprirtual person Ed, is it responsible to keep a 'body' alive when it passed its used by date? how are we killing someone,who otherwise would have died, and in many cases with less pain.

the ethical question should be is it human (menschlich) to keep someone alive at all costs. This is the question that needs to be answered.

and quite frankly politicians wrestle with nothing (they are made of teflon, nothing sticks) and doctors are not going to do or say anything that might make the liable to criminal prosecution (correct term?)


it is society that needs to understand that some just do not wish to live, and that this is their choice. those that can make their own end will do so, those that cant will ask for help.

in any case we don't have to walk a day in their shoes, and we should not judge them, nor condemn them to undue pain and suffering.

we don't have to understand nor like the decision, we only have to respect it.

It is not a black or white issue even from the Biblical perspective. The command is not to commit murder which is the predetermined and deliberate killing of a person. As we agree the problem is caused by modern medicine that skews and masks the cause if death and questions the definition of murder.

[Edbear]

Depends, Ed. If it's my life we're talking about then I do.

It really is that simple.

No it is not simple and while you have the right to self determination do you have the right to ask someone else to kill you?

[Zamiam]

Depends, Ed. If it's my life we're talking about then I do.

It really is that simple.

Exactly!

If slavery is illegal, which it is, what right has anyone to tell me what I can or can't do to myself (or ask someone to do for me).

All I can hope is that the sanctimonious pricks end up like the poor bugga that this thread was started about.

[blue rider]

It is not a black or white issue even from the Biblical perspective. The command is not to commit murder which is the predetermined and deliberate killing of a person. As we agree the problem is caused by modern medicine that skews and masks the cause if death and questions the definition of murder.

i would always leave the bible out of these discussions as as both books the old and the new testament are full of killings, murder, gratuitous destruction of otherwise quite healthy people.

all that killing of first borns that never harmed any one comes to mind.

The question is simple, who are we to interfere with the wishes of individuals as to how they want to end their lives.
Anyone in the medical world who would be uncomfortable with rendering such a service need not apply for the vacancy. Surely there would be people, compassionate enough to offer the service as a standard medicinal practice.

Society is just to cowardly to allow for it, because it would end the sanctimonious claptrap of all live is holy. it isn't and it never was.