If you are scared of bullets

[Maki]

i'm not entirely sure what your point was.
all white folk should kill themselves in good conscience?

The point was that we need to grow up as a species and manage our planet properly. That includes our own population. War, hunger, famine and epidemics will continue until we learn to do this.

[Swoop]

Since when has it been the 'job' of troop commanders or warrant officers to "stand up to their Colonels poor decisions"?

In the squadrons it happens fairly regularly. Stupidity in leadership was no excuse for getting troops injured unnecessarily and the environment promotes the ability to question poorly made decisions. Poor sods in the line infantry though.

JK want's them to stay for another 6 months because it will make him look better and the military is happy to invent excuses to cover his ass.

The government comitted to a certain timeframe. Simply packing up your toys and leaving the sandpit because things got hotter is a piss-poor excuse and something I would expect from the french. They did just that, btw.

I hope that the force will be kept within the compound or wherever it is they are staying for the 6 months needed...

Seige mentality? A good way to get even more danger thrown in the direction of the troops. Getting patrols out there has to happen in a combat environment.
The main cock-up has been the use of conventional vehicles. MRAP vehicles are a necessity and the other combatant nations have withdrawn vehicles to replace them with these. NZ tried to get their hands on some but only had a few of the LAV's which had to be up-armoured to cope with the threat.
Well done Labour. Ordering far too many of these and choosing the wrong option for a war. Quite acceptable for a police-action, but land rovers would have sufficed for that role.

[Maki]

The government comitted to a certain timeframe. Simply packing up your toys and leaving the sandpit because things got hotter is a piss-poor excuse and something I would expect from the french. They did just that, btw.

Good on the French. I hope no one you know dies to save JK's face. The reason for simply packing up and leaving is that 10 years have proven that their presence there is pointless. Throwing away more lives in Afghanistan is criminally stupid. the gubermint can take it's "commitments" and shove them for all i care. I don't understand why so many people value these political commitments higher than human lives. You must not think very much of the people in the armed forces.

[Brett]

Thank you. I hope that the force will be kept within the compound or wherever it is they are staying for the 6 months needed to keep JK's face. No need to make any more sacrifices. I believe some other nations in the multinational occupation force have adopted this policy with good results.

And if I was the enemy, I would know exactly where to hit them and cause the most casualties in that case. There are many in the army much better trained and with better experience than you or I to make strategic choices.

[Brett]

The point was that we need to grow up as a species and manage our planet properly. That includes our own population. War, hunger, famine and epidemics will continue until we learn to do this.

As shit as it is, managing our planet and people properly sometimes entails that we go to war. People are complicated, nations are complicated. Not all nations are as 'civilised' as NZ, you will never get everyone on the same page. Some people would oppose your views just for the sake of it. New Zealand (thanksfully) is very isolated and insulated in many ways from the outside world. It allows kiwi's who have not experienced the great wide world to form a naive, narrow world view. Some people, not a particular attack on you Maki, just cannot see that it is the place of the more developed nations to protect the fundamental rights of the weaker nations and oppressed people. Unfortunately, ignoring the bully doesn't always work. sometimes you have to beat the living snot out of him to stop him hurting others.

[caseye]

Unlike some, "the people in the armed services " of NZ know exactly why they are there and that their job is to patrol places that lesser troops are afraid of.
If you ask a returned service person from that particular region ( and any other, from actions long over and done with) and they will tell you that their presence there is all that stands between the local people and certain death from nasty Taliban's, further that the local people have come to rely on them for their safety and do actually want them there.
NZ in particular has a reputation for getting the job done and for taking the local population with them, not making them part of the problem.
Our armed services have fought/policed around the globe for those of us who remain here to be able to have our own thoughts and opinions and to act on them as we see fit.
Your inalienable rights are earn't on, THEIR BACKS, they know most NZ'ers are behind them wherever they are.
They also know that without the few who actually go out and do the hard yards there would be no democracy, they know that's why they are there and that's why we don't hear them saying, "I want to come home mummy"
Even given substandard ( by this theatres standards) equipment, they go out and do their job, knowing they could be the next causalities. Our services guys and girls are not stupid cannon fodder, they know the situation, they all volunteered, they all accept the risks. They also know when they are scheduled to come home and I'm sure are looking forward to it and doing their absolute best to make sure they do come home walking and talking.
Allies, friends, pact members, partners, all have responsibilities, if our govt pulled our troops out early, others would have to go in and fill their spot, is that acceptable to the families and countries of those who then have to go in and do that?
No I think not.
Can we simply pull out, blaming someone else for making it too hot an environment to operate in? ( Some are already blaming the Hungarians for not patrolling in their Provence, how convenient!)
We have a job to do, oh and a damn fine reputation for getting on with it and making it happen despite the odds.
Be proud of our troops, Yes, take away their mana in the eyes of the world? No.
Be responsible for the atrocities that will occur should our troops be pulled out earlier than scheduled, No. Is it going to happen anyway? Who Knows, who cares, if by then the locals haven't got it sorted, then at least we tried and our people died and sacrificed lives and living for those still there.
No military, No preparedness= surrender at every turn.
Do I want to live like that, No.
We live here in NZ not fucking France.Where the first shot fired causes the automatic raising of a white flag.
Yep, they've already gone home.

[Brett]

There is a reason that this poem has been adopted by special forces groups, including SAS:

The Golden Road to Samarkand

They ask:
But who are ye in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We answer:
We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further; it may be
Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,

White on a throne or guarded in a cave
There lies a prophet who can understand
Why men were born: but surely we are brave,
Who take the Golden Road to Samarkand.

The whole poem is very long, available HERE for those interested.

[Swoop]

You must not think very much of the people in the armed forces.

I think highly of the troops and the shitty equipment they are forced to use... if they are provided with it in the first place. (Thanks, labour).

I also have some very good mates over there chasing camels. One was blown up by a roadside IED. Dusted himself off and kept going...

[Bald Eagle]

chasing camels. One was blown up by a roadside IED. Dusted himself off and kept going...

them camels are tough

Sent from my MB525 using Tapatalk 2

[Akzle]

Why we are there? because the Taliban were killing Afghans, especially woman and children, blowing up history and not wanted people the people but supported by the Al Qa'ida and some arab states. They were driven out and we were sent in to keep the peace and help rebuild. The people do respect and trust us because we are helping them rebuild schools hospitals etc but an education population is the last thing any totalitarian group like the Taliban want. Ironically the more our troops help the people and the more respect they get the more the Taliban will target the NZ troops.

The Americans etc do get target by more of the population because of the 'we know best' dictatorial attitude.

There needs to be an Afghanistan method of solution. No outside power has ever successfully controlled that country. My guess is that if the people of Afghanistan are given a level playing field the Taliban will be doomed but 'the west' doesn't like those sorts of solution because they are in control.

so... the "allies" outnumber the "terrorists" 5:1, have for a decade and a half. making good progress there. for every "terrorist" they martyr, another 5 sign up.

what business is it, of "the west"'s how afghanistan decides to govern itself?

as far as killing women and children, and bombing hospitals/kindergartens/schools. i daresay the yanks have probably done that far more efficiently than the dune-coons ever could.

The point was that we need to grow up as a species and manage our planet properly. That includes our own population. War, hunger, famine and epidemics will continue until we learn to do this.

we agree.
although your definition of "management" (re: planet) would probably differ from mine...

[bogan]

Unlike some, "the people in the armed services " of NZ know exactly why they are there and that their job is to patrol places that lesser troops are afraid of.
If you ask a returned service person from that particular region ( and any other, from actions long over and done with) and they will tell you that their presence there is all that stands between the local people and certain death from nasty Taliban's, further that the local people have come to rely on them for their safety and do actually want them there.
NZ in particular has a reputation for getting the job done and for taking the local population with them, not making them part of the problem.

And this imo, is the only reason to go to war. And a good reason to stay there, in fact the sacrifice is more noble when you are doing it for foreigners than your own countrymen if you think about it.

[Akzle]

As shit as it is, managing our planet and people
...

Unlike some, "the people in the armed services " of NZ know exactly why they are there and that their job is to patrol places that lesser troops are afraid of.
...

seeeeeeewwwwww.
basically you're both of the opinion that the west is best and needs to force it's way of living on those who aren't "civilised" enough to bow before the mighty and righteous "democracy" flag that your government waves?
do you really believe that the allied prescence in afghanistan is stopping fascism/communism/terrorism from spreading and "infecting" our perfect societies?

"if by then the locals haven't...." - we're pretty much two decades into the shit. you mean to tell me that the taliban are going to drop their AKs and disband their camels for NZ's presence for a further 12 months??

"who knows who cares" - then why are we there?

i can fully support using the "defense force" to DEFEND.
OUR SHORELINE.
anything further than that. what benefit? are you really living in fear of "terrorists" "flying planes into our buildings"? do you really believe you need to brow beat a civilisation 2000 years older than your own to YOUR way of life?

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

i don't think i could possibly disagree with you more, caseye.

[bogan]

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

So only those with the means to be heard should be listened to?

If 80% of the people over there were to want a western democracy, would you consider it a just war of liberation?

[caseye]

seeeeeeewwwwww.
basically you're both of the opinion that the west is best( Who said that? ) and needs to force it's way of living on those who aren't "civilised" enough to bow before the mighty and righteous "democracy" flag that your government waves?
do you really believe that the allied prescence in afghanistan is stopping fascism/communism/terrorism from spreading and "infecting" our perfect societies?( Our societies are perfect? No I didn't say that either)

"if by then the locals haven't...." - we're pretty much two decades into the shit. you mean to tell me that the taliban are going to drop their AKs and lead their disband their camels for NZ's prescence for a further 12 months??( course not )

"who knows who cares" - then why are we there?( Because we are part of the great big world and we've gone there because people were suffering at the hands of nasties,We've done a hell of a lot for the average Joe rag top in Bamiyan)

i can fully support using the "defence force" to DEFEND.
OUR SHORELINE.( biggest Joke I've ever heard re our "defence force")
anything further than that. what benefit? are you really living in fear of "terrorists" "flying planes into our buildings"? (it has happened ya know)do you really believe you need to brow beat a civilisation 2000 years older than your own to YOUR way of life? ( course not, teach them some fucking manners when it comes to how they treat their own Oh Yeah)

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

i don't think i could possibly disagree with you more, caseye.

( seems we're disagreeing on a lot less than you gave me credit? for)

[Brett]

seeeeeeewwwwww.
basically you're both of the opinion that the west is best and needs to force it's way of living on those who aren't "civilised" enough to bow before the mighty and righteous "democracy" flag that your government waves?
do you really believe that the allied prescence in afghanistan is stopping fascism/communism/terrorism from spreading and "infecting" our perfect societies?

"if by then the locals haven't...." - we're pretty much two decades into the shit. you mean to tell me that the taliban are going to drop their AKs and disband their camels for NZ's presence for a further 12 months??

"who knows who cares" - then why are we there?

i can fully support using the "defense force" to DEFEND.
OUR SHORELINE.
anything further than that. what benefit? are you really living in fear of "terrorists" "flying planes into our buildings"? do you really believe you need to brow beat a civilisation 2000 years older than your own to YOUR way of life?

this war. (indeed, any war) WILL NOT BE WON. the afghanis, teletubbies, alibaba, alqaiida, and jemal from the kebab shop up the road WILL NOT just give up and vote in puppets like we do over here.

i don't think i could possibly disagree with you more, caseye.

Edit - how could you possibly infer those comments from our posts? Is your reading comprehension limited?

So ...to apply your logic, if a guy in the next street from me regularly beats his wife and kids, pours acid in their faces and generally treats them like shit, and I happen to be someone who knows about it and is big enough and brave enough to defend them, I have no place getting involved? Never mind that the wife and kids are too scared and powerless to say anything because the houses in their road are filled with families suffering the same fate? You're saying that I should stay in my comfy rich man's house and not help them because it's their business not mine?

And FYI - their culture has changed a lot over the last thousand years. To say that it is better than our because it is more established is pretty retarded...If we're going to take that view, there are many much older cultures and civilisations that provide a much better example.

Akzle - can I ask you...have you ever been to the middle east, africa or somewhere similar where people's rights are so disrespected? Is it possible that you're view is skewed by the fact that you are perceiving these nations incorrectly?