Commodity ownership?

[Matariki]

NZ Maori Council co-Chair Sir Eddie Durie says claim does not cover all NZ water

[mashman]

Shut the fuck up! It's way easier to point the finger!

I think you imply the problem is bigger than I see it though. Most kiwis don't really give a shot about any of it, till it's on the news and poorly reported on with an eye firmly shut. It is the small percentage of each group, (except the governing leg, they're all stupid about shit all the time), who are creating mass hysteria and hindering the growth of us as a country.

The Maori got fucked over when whitey sold the land they were using instead of giving it back. But until whitey got here, some of what was sold was not in any way workable for the Maori. Rivers and lakes are a perfect example! The Maori fished, washed, and swam in them, but they did not use it's potential in any way shape or form. How can they now have the rights to a potential they were centuries away from developing. A race, let's not forget, that had not yet invented the wheel!

The land under the lakes, created when dams went up, probably a claim to be made there, IF there is proof said land was worked.

I have presented this from the white fella perspective, I'll now have a crack at the flip side.

Whitey came here and shafted the Maori by selling their land. They need to give it back, or pay for it... Umm, little help? I cannot seem to find a logical argument for getting water rights.

Are you saying that whitey has the IP for the wheel? and by extension every piece of technology that was ever created, because they "invented" commerce? and that even though the Maori were traders, they never would have had access to any of the technology because they're too stupid to understand the positives that comes with it?

....

I guess once "title" has been granted to anyone for land/water/air/my naval fluff, you could class it as theft. It belonged to no one before us. For me the idea of ownership is legislative only. People wanting to hold claim over "assets". I can fully understand that given the way the world works... but it would seem counter-intuitive to have individuals or groups owning/renting land with legal rights that "gift" the riches of that land to an individual or group given that we are all supposed to be in the same boat. Some want the land to live off, some want it to turn a profit, some will look after the land and some will rape the fuck out of it. This whole process is almost comical as it seems as though this is nothing more than a lolly scramble with the vast majority of the country not benefiting 1 iota. My only hope, yes hope, is that Maori are wanting the water not only to make a profit, but to keep an eye on what some obviously (to me anyway) consider sacred and in need of protection. A naive point of view perhaps, but someone needs to do it, as whitey mcwhite hasn't really done a good job of that so far imho. At the end of the day the argument boils down to who is getting the money and what do they intend to do with it... well at least that seems to be the recurring theme in the thread and the media. The rest will be sorted in a court of law and not for the benefit of all. Shame really.

[Drew]

Are you saying that whitey has the IP for the wheel? and by extension every piece of technology that was ever created, because they "invented" commerce? and that even though the Maori were traders, they never would have had access to any of the technology because they're too stupid to understand the positives that comes with it?

....

Hahahahahaha, what? No.

I used the wheel example, to illustrate that Maori were no where near technologically advanced enough to harness water, in anything but a bucket.

I have to go a bit off topic and point out my surprise at this too. Maori are descended from asia somewhere aren't they? Those little zipper head mofos have been using water abstractly for centuries haven't they?

[mashman]

Hahahahahaha, what? No.

I used the wheel example, to illustrate that Maori were no where near technologically advanced enough to harness water, in anything but a bucket.

I have to go a bit off topic and point out my surprise at this too. Maori are descended from asia somewhere aren't they? Those little zipper head mofos have been using water abstractly for centuries haven't they?

heh... my point was that knowledge travels with expanding borders. Once upon a time 1 person, perhaps two, discovered the wheel, 1 person invented a combustion engine and some sad fucker built a frame. The knowledge of thos 4/5/6 people was shared and now the zipper head mofos () have something to do with the wheels, IL4 components and frame. Just because a "civilisation" doesn't have a piece of knowledge at any given point time does not mean that they can't learn it and again, like the zipper head mofos, improve upon what has gone before.

[Banditbandit]

And there's your answer, you embrace these eurocentric ideals when there's money in it for you; and claim they have wronged you, well when there is money/property in it for you too. Seems like the european way of life is the way to go, lucky we came over an hooked you guys up with it right?

Jeez .. whitey is so dumb they can't spot a wind up ....

[Banditbandit]

Being a sales-type person, I've always strongly believed that if you give something away for free, it isn't valued by the recipient.

It's about time we rectified that and levied a technology licencing fee on Iwi to allow continued use of all the stuff that the white man brought and I'm sorry, but no more motorcycling for you, until you've paid your "Maori miles". It's
not so bad though, if you join Dirt Division, you're only paying for the wheels and engine component and you don't need to stump up for the sealed-road bit.

Now, I just need to go away and calculate what you owe per-word for the written alphabet.

Yeah - ok let's all pay for a technology fee for technology that we did not deliver ... let me see New Zealand did not develop

TV
Radio
DVD
Computers
Cars
Motorcycles
Electric Ovens - In fact Electricity
Beds
Houses
Cheese and butter making processes


New Zealand did develop:
Electric fences
Nuclear power (we split the atom)

So .. we owe the world an awful lot of money in technology fees (for more than is on the list) and the rest of the world owes us stuff all in comparison ..

Why tax one group in this country for things they did not develop and not tax another group for things they did not develop?

[Banditbandit]

It's getting a bit "us and them" again. People don't try to see past that, and it makes discussion moot.

I am truly interested to hear a compelling argument for the Maori positive here.

As an aside, can someone tell me how a tribe owns lambton quay in Wellington? I thought that shit was under water before the White devil got here.

And you drop into the "them and us" mode as uch as trhe rest of us ... This is a tricky one ... human beings tend to do that al the time .. I'm convijced its biological . anyway ... the problem with that si that if we attempt a "we" then often it is a Pākehā idea of what that we means, as opposed to a Māori idea of what the "we" means ...

How is it ever not though? Who gets the money, they do; who pays for it, we do. I mean FFS, my ancestors were scottish or some shit, those brawlers didn't sign no treaty...

Bwhahaha .. my ancetors are Māori, Irish and Scottish .. all fought the English. The Highland clearances forced most people off their land and into the Southern Hemisphere (or ther Americas) .. and then they pushed Māori off their land here ..

How come when you all came here you forgot the lessons the English had taught us all and used Sassenach tactics against the people here ... just like the English in Ireland and Scotland ... Your Masters in Whitehall and Threadneedle Street trained you all very well after the defeats at Cullodon and Vinegar Hill and Tara.

Mystical Gods, tribes, tribal leaders, "sacred" places this is still 2012 were talking about? Why are people still trying to drag old ground up from the 1800´s? How many worldwide wars and conflicts have we had since then?

Jeez mate ... only Pākehā New Zealanders have memories that short. The Irish rebellion remembers Oliver Cromwell ... the argument in the Balkans (Serbs and Croatas et al) is the left-overs of an Ottoman invasion (Muslims) 400 years ago ... The Scottish Nationalist Song FLower of Scotland remembers William Wallace (him portrayed in the movie Braveheart) ...

How come the rest of the world gets to rememebr - but we can't? We hold in our iwi memories the names of the people who arrived here on their waka (and the ones who were here before the wakas) and why they left the pacific islands to come here ... Most Pākehā New Zealanders can't even remember the names of the boats that brought their people here less than 200 years ago ... let alone where abouts (specifically) they came from and why ...

[Banditbandit]

Now, I just need to go away and calculate what you owe per-word for the written alphabet.

Oh love it!!!! Just noticed this comment!!!!

You do realise that most of our alphabet and most of our numbering system come from Arabic countries?

I wonder how much the Christian Western World owes the Muslim Middle East for the alphabet and numbers !!!!!

[MisterD]

Why tax one group in this country for things they did not develop and not tax another group for things they did not develop?

Missing the point as usual. European settlers brought with them technology, and cultural advancements like writing and hey, the rule of law. Without the stuff that those settlers brought, and gave for free, we wouldn't have the country we have and Maori would still be subsistence farmers and cannibals.

This "everything bad is whitey's fault, so give me $$$" bollocks has to end.

[Banditbandit]

Missing the point as usual. European settlers brought with them technology, and cultural advancements like writing and hey, the rule of law. Without the stuff that those settlers brought, and gave for free, we wouldn't have the country we have and Maori would still be subsistence farmers and cannibals.

This "everything bad is whitey's fault, so give me $$$" bollocks has to end.

I get the point - I would argue that the European settlers brought with them technology that they had not developed - but had reciecved free from the people who did develop them (writing is a good example - certainly came from the Golden Triangle area - now Iraq/Iran .. what was Mesopotamia.)

So if we have to pay for it because we use it but did not create it, recieved it free, then why should that argument not apply to the Settlers - who did not develop it but received it free from the people who did develop it.

The rule of law? Shit, did we want that? Did we ask for that? We had our own laws - you dumped them on us ... you can take them back any time you want and let us have our own laws back ...

And why do you think we would still be subsistance farmers. There are plenty of other coutries still run by the people who owned them and were not colonized who are not stuck in the ways of 200 or 300 years ago, who are not still "running around in grass skirts".

[bogan]

Jeez .. whitey is so dumb they can't spot a wind up ....

A lot of truths are hidden in 'wind-up', the fact that you avoid answering the question seriously says that answer was likely a truth you didn't want to admit.

I get the point - I would argue that the European settlers brought with them technology that they had not developed - but had reciecved free from the people who did develop them (writing is a good example - certainly came from the Golden Triangle area - now Iraq/Iran .. what was Mesopotamia.)

Doesn't matter where it originated, European settlers were in possession of it. And apparently the way to go is to charge people for what you used to have possession of...

[oldrider]

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1130400832]The rule of law? Shit, did we want that? Did we ask for that? We had our own laws - you dumped them on us ... you can take them back any time you want and let us have our own laws back ...[QUOTE]

Really! Most of the Maori leaders of the day opted for the British (Westminster) law because of the lack of agreement among their own separate communities! (Iwi)

To say it was forced upon them is rubbish and your comments suggests that they (the chiefs) didn't know what they were doing also suggests that they were stupid, far from it!

[MisterD]

I get the point - I would argue that the European settlers brought with them technology that they had not developed -

Metal working? The agricultural and industrial revolutions were specifically British. By Maori logic, if Len Brown wants to build his rail loop I'm owed a divvy because G&R Stephenson are my direct ancestors.

So if we have to pay for it because we use it but did not create it, recieved it free, then why should that argument not apply to the Settlers - who did not develop it but received it free from the people who did develop it.

Why should we pay you for generating power off a river you happened to live next door to? Compensation for something that prevents you continuing to use the river as you used to, fair enough, clipping the ticket for no reason? F-off.

The rule of law? Shit, did we want that? Did we ask for that? We had our own laws - you dumped them on us ... you can take them back any time you want and let us have our own laws back ...

Well yes, they evidence is you wanted *exactly* that when you signed the treaty.

And why do you think we would still be subsistance farmers. There are plenty of other coutries still run by the people who owned them and were not colonized who are not stuck in the ways of 200 or 300 years ago, who are not still "running around in grass skirts".

To make technological advances, you typically have to have enough free time away from basic survival needs to work on them. I don't see much evidence that that was the case, even if you weren't quite as badly off in that regard as Aussie's "indigenous".

[Banditbandit]

Really! Most of the Maori leaders of the day opted for the British (Westminster) law because of the lack of agreement among their own separate communities! (Iwi)

To say it was forced upon them is rubbish and your comments suggests that they (the chiefs) didn't know what they were doing also suggests that they were stupid, far from it!

There is a great debate over what happened 20 years ago and what each side expected. In our own country we expected to maintain our laws - The Treaty gave us Tino Rangatiratanga - self-rule. The European settlers had the same privilege - self-rule. Only the settlers set up a Governmetn and expected to rule us as well as themselves !!!

And the characterization of "Iwi" as "communities" is a colonizing approach. A better interpretation of "iwi" is "nation". The fundamental definition of a nation is a group of people with a defined geographical area, who enforce their laws within that boundary, and proect that bounded area from invasion . That certainly applies to Iwi, each of which had an area of land that was defended and had laws which applied within that boundary ..

Our ancestors were translating "iwi" as "nation" during the 1800s . it was the settlers who did not want to recognise that ...

[bogan]

There is a great debate over what haoppened 20 years ago and what each side expected. In our own country we expected to maintain our laws - The Treaty gave us Tino Rangatiratanga - self-rule. The European settlers had the same privilege - self-rule. Only the settlers set up a Governmetn and expected to rule us as well as themselves !!!

So with two sets of different self-rule, who rules those of mixed blood? Or can they pick and choose laws from each side? Or does one group have to go stand in a river they own to be under their juristiction?