Govt assault on young 'uns continues

[GrayWolf]

Pharking ageist bastards

I started on 40% of a tradesman wage, and did a similar[or greater] output, after my tradesman set me up to go

Young people are healthier and fitter..... old people should be paid less

Yeh but instead of working HARDER, the old bastard knows all the tricks of the trade, with years of experience, THATS what he is paid for,, it may take a mechanic, plumber, electrician 15 minutes to find and sort out a problem, BECAUSE he has the skill, training and knowledge.

I agree that they shouldn't get 100k off the bat, but as posted earlier, they're hardly getting paid enough to make their own way. I understand the idea behind the hard yards, but even those who have it "easy" have to do the hard yards. Why make it even harder by paying them less just because you can?
Dodging school, stacking shelves, managing/processing/validating the stock arrivals, turning up for work, putting a roof on a house, tying knots, mending creels, driving boats, fuckin up royally and pretty much anything I turned my hand to and all within a relatively short space of time. My point is that 16yr olds aren't useless, so why do we persist in treating/paying them as though they are?

And the opposite has created what? Certainly not a society that I'd be proud of touting at any intergalactic board meeting . I never said irrespective of skill or age for that matter, but I believe that they are worth minimum wage or a trip to the dole. This financially penalising them because they are considered to be all but useless doesn't wash in my naive little book and does more damage than good in regards to character building. Start valuing them and perhaps they'll start valuing their contribution?

Man this really does wind me up. As an apprentice (1974) I got paid 12 GB pounds a week. ($30 approx) just under a third of a qualified fitter/turner, and a 1/4 of a toolmaker's wages. Out of that I took home 10 quid, $5 was rent, $5 quid had to support me through the week. I eventually bought a moped (50cc with pedals) as my first bike.
These days? I see kids paying their parents $20 aweek for keep, and then going out and buying a bloody 10k WRX/Evo etc on the knock. I had to learn to budget to live, and hell yes I went without a lot of things for the first 2 years of work. A large amount of 16 yr old's these days are semi literate and incapable of carrying out instructions without 'pouting about it'..... They are so used to playing up at school and no one can 'touch them' when suddenly they can be sacked for the same shit they performed at school. I go shopping and maybe buy a coffee/bun etc in a cafe.. I can add the cost on my head faster than most 'youngsters' can do a sum on paper, or hells teeth, use the add feature on the till, and then watch them struggle to get the change correct from the till drawer.
I know even as an Apprentice, for the first 2 years (1 full time in technical college, 2nd block releaase and work 'experience') NO WAY was I 'productive' for my employer. By 1978 I was earning 80 UK pounds a week, at 21 when I had completed my City and Guilds (apprenticship) and taken a further 1 year Higher National cert as a 'Toolmaker' I was earning 160 GB pounds a week. (when I started my mates were earning between 20-25 quid a week, double what I got... by the end of my Apprenticeship I was earning double their adult wage. Most kids/youth want it all, NOW,,, they don't want to accept they do NOT do an adult days work.

[Brian d marge]

The world fundamentally changed August 15th 1968 and again in 1982 , the argument of when I was a lad is null and void. Though on the face of it 6 months on ten dollars an hour doesn’t seem that bad, its how the employers use it that remains to be seen and remember we have the 90 day and the two week stand down

watch this space is all I can say.

Stephen

[mossy1200]

Funny

I cant find the bit where they are tax free for the first 6months.

Does this mean its not a move to help young people get into a job but instead to stop paying them a benefit?

I started on 40% of trade wage and was in a flat. I worked in the market gardens in the weekend for extra money to spend.
Things are a bit different these days. Get a job and stay at home. Go to clubs and buy a car with loaned money and then make it fast and loud with more loaned money.

[Akzle]

setting aside the fact that i'm generally opposed to the government, i'm not opposed to this scheme. from what i've heard, it's only 16 & 17 year olds, and only for the first 6 months at a new job.
asides from anything, from an employer perspective, that actually only "saves" 2800$, the remainder of OSH requirements, providing PPE etc. remain
the employer may decide they would rather pay that 3K than have to put up with a 16 year old who's going to fuck shit up and leave in 7 months.
not to mention that some jobs just aren't worth minimum wage. and if the government hadn't fucked up the whole money/tax thing, a "living wage" would be considerably less.

[oneofsix]

Funny

I cant find the bit where they are tax free for the first 6months.

Does this mean its not a move to help young people get into a job but instead to stop paying them a benefit?

I started on 40% of trade wage and was in a flat. I worked in the market gardens in the weekend for extra money to spend.
Things are a bit different these days. Get a job and stay at home. Go to clubs and buy a car with loaned money and then make it fast and loud with more loaned money.

Comparing one person from your day with one small group of people from today is a bit unfair, you should be in the present government.

It is just another way to widen the gap.

[FJRider]

a 16 year old typlically struggles to stay focussed all day because, since they are not used to an 8 hour plus work day, they tend not to take instruction that well, some are better than others and progress quicker, and they tend to talk back a bit as well, which teachers seem to have to put up with, but bosses do not,

16 year old kids bitch about the length of the school day now.

Most 16-18 year old's live at home ... (tied to mummy's apron strings)


Welcome to the real world kids ...

[FJRider]

setting aside the fact that i'm generally opposed to the government, i'm not opposed to this scheme. from what i've heard, it's only 16 & 17 year olds, and only for the first 6 months at a new job.
asides from anything, from an employer perspective, that actually only "saves" 2800$, the remainder of OSH requirements, providing PPE etc. remain
the employer may decide they would rather pay that 3K than have to put up with a 16 year old who's going to fuck shit up and leave in 7 months.
not to mention that some jobs just aren't worth minimum wage. and if the government hadn't fucked up the whole money/tax thing, a "living wage" would be considerably less.

Some wont stay that long. They'll go back to school (where life is easier) and get qualifications that will get them better money for their time. But plenty of kids to fill their place.

Off to Uni and get on the piss ...

[GrayWolf]

The world fundamentally changed August 15th 1968 and again in 1982 , the argument of when I was a lad is null and void. Though on the face of it 6 months on ten dollars an hour doesn’t seem that bad, its how the employers use it that remains to be seen and remember we have the 90 day and the two week stand down

watch this space is all I can say.

Stephen

You're right these days it IS different... they have no 'consequences' for bad behaviour at school, they fuck around, tell teachers to fuck off, dont learn (Yes I will admit not ALL kids, but now a large group of them), prefer to play computer games, txt etc etc. A few years ago there was a UK TV program called 'that'll learn them'.. it was a 'reality'? show that put modern age school children who from their results were going to do well in the current Exam regime. They were given a standard O level paper we took in the 50's/60's/70's, every one of them failed. The kids were put into a 'mock school' under the old style discipline and teaching methods of the 50'60's (except the cane/corporal punishment was not allowed). They were subjected to the same type of schooling we had, hard teachers who took no shit, in fact THEY dished out the shit. End result after 3 months the kids grammar, subject knowledge, and written English skills improved exponentially. over 70% passed a second 'mock O level'. When we took History or Geography we LOST marks for bad spelling, bad grammar etc.
So yeh you're right, it is different today, they are allowed to use 'txt' abrv's, u kno wat i meen, i kan rite lyk ths nd sum mployr wul guv me a jb, coz me a gud stdnt at skwl.
Apart from which, they bully little jimmy at school, omg, they have Parent teacher meetings and 'counselling' as to why they did it, it isnt nice etc etc,,,, go into the workforce and do the same shit? Out on their ear sacked and an assault charge... now how the fuck does a PTA style meeting prepare them for the 'real world'? i watch youngsters at my work both as staff and as passengers. There is an almost dividing line between them. Some and I think becoming the minority, have manners, ability, and are obviously employable. The other side and from my observation a very large proportion, have no respect among themselves or towards others, (yeh I know old bastards say that about EVERY generation) but just think on this, if the current crop of young people dont like being told what to do, and ' I have my rights, dont touch me... I can get an 'independance allowance' and divorce you if your mean to me mum and dad'.... what the fuck are YOUR kids going to be like when young teenagers???
Worldwide there has been a shift towards employing OLDER people over the young ones, why IS that? We cost more to employ (wages) We have less years left to 'give' although the days of a 50 year man are dead and gone. We can get sick more often, less fit, wear glasses, move slower..... We must be able to offer an employer something the youth cant... and I'd gues it's reliability, work ethic, better command of English written and spoken, more adept at maths, likely more polite towards customers.... dont even GET me started on the pissy attitude of 'shop assistants'.
I look at the youngsters in my work, they have to handle money so maths is a 'must' for them, as well as an ability to communicate effectively. Yes they are out there, but a lot of them are Uni students doing part time, and the full time ones? You can see they ARE the kids who did knuckle down and actually LEARN at skewl, unsted of fukin arund and telin that fkin teecha theer a dik.

[SMOKEU]

I used to scrape slices of human brain off the floor in the pathology labs at less than minimum wage.

Pics or it didn't happen.

[sidecar bob]

I left school on $3.50 per hour. What it taught me was that if I wanted more, I had to up skill & work harder.
I did & I honestly wouldnt have a clue what my yearly income is now, all things taken into account. But suffice to say, mission accomplished.
Nowadays, people have a champion that goes into bat for them when they want to stay home & smoke drugs, & when the Govt wants them to only be paid 50 percent more than they are actually worth.

[blue rider]

being paid a lower wage during the 3 years of an apprentyship or a similar training scheme makes sense.
when I was an apprentice my first wage was 250 Deutsch Mark monthly. After paying board I had 90 Mark left.
I did not live at home. This was also in the eighties and stuff was actually cheaper then today.

However having a standard McDo job and then being paid less because of age....
Working for Starbucks making coffee, and being paid less because of age.....
Working for pretty much any retail business and being paid less because of age.....well you get my drift.

There is a huge difference between a paid training scheme and a standard job. And in a standard job (i.e. frying burgers, and manning a till at the warehouse etc ) for which youth can now be legally paid less then their older counterparts is age discrimination, with a nice potential for abuse, no matter how legalised.

[Banditbandit]

You're right these days it IS different... they have no 'consequences' for bad behaviour at school, they fuck around, tell teachers to fuck off, dont learn

So what's really changed???



In 1898, newspapers in England warned of the menace of "hooligans" and of a "dramatic increase in disorderly behaviour". The Times reported "organised terrorism in the streets". In every decade of the 20th century there were similar media panics.

"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint".
Hesiod, 8th century BC

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
Plato, 4th Century BC

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
Attributed to Peter the Hermit, AD 12743

In the 1800s, hordes of teens and pre-teens ran wild in American city streets, dodging authorities, "gnawing away at the foundations of society", as a commentator put it. In 1850, New York City recorded more than 200 gang wars fought largely by adolescent boys.

"Juvenile delinquency has increased at an alarming rate and is eating at the heart of America"
US juvenile court judge, 1946

[Brian d marge]

So what's really changed???



In 1898, newspapers in England warned of the menace of "hooligans" and of a "dramatic increase in disorderly behaviour". The Times reported "organised terrorism in the streets". In every decade of the 20th century there were similar media panics.

"When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint".
Hesiod, 8th century BC

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
Plato, 4th Century BC

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint... As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
Attributed to Peter the Hermit, AD 12743

In the 1800s, hordes of teens and pre-teens ran wild in American city streets, dodging authorities, "gnawing away at the foundations of society", as a commentator put it. In 1850, New York City recorded more than 200 gang wars fought largely by adolescent boys.

"Juvenile delinquency has increased at an alarming rate and is eating at the heart of America"
US juvenile court judge, 1946

I sometimes use those quotes , but it isn’t about behaviour , that is a by product of a bigger malaise , basically the world removed itself from the gold standard completely , we all tied ourselves to the American dollar , Nixon fiddled the books and money became backed by debt ( assets , and a promise ) then in the late 70s a new way of quantifying things began to be used , ( Kind of game theory , Nash as in a beautiful mind movie ) , well the only way this theory works is if we all are assumed to be selfish and a bastard ( in tests it didn’t work, but was handy to use)
So
we now have, money that’s backed by a promise ( Greece) , quantifiable performance target produced by cnts , the only way to grow is to either export more ( transfer of wealth and Knowledge ) or go deeper into debt ( money,if used in fractional reserve system is debt) and means that if you want to become wealthy , its by moving money ( property , speculation, )

Gone are the days of work hard save your money ( Remember Burkis in David Copperfield and the box he had ? ...not an option these days, as one little devaluation would make Burkis's money buy a lot less than it did..Quantitative easing , or printing money has similar effect, ,,,,,) in fact if you save, then the country cant grow, as grow need new money entering the system !!!

So IF you can move money , or if you had speculative assets , then your net worth grew, if you didn’t , then you remained static. ( most of NZ under 40 ) IF you had a problem and needed state assistance , you are in deep poo ( remember the biggest benefit USERS are the retired,,nearly half)

So as those who can do , and those who cant don’t , the gap widens , and those near the bottom are disenfranchised , invent strange systems to justify things , this entrenches itself over generations ...and you end up in the mess we are in now

The behaviour of YOOF , and in my day arguments ,,,, all null and void , if you were in the asset market around 1970 then you should be home and hosed , if you are trying to enter the asset market after 1980 , your screwed ( can be done but not as easily as in 1960 ) the system of economics and rationalization(s) we use to day has produce the society we have now . me, me, me

Stephen

Sorry if the above isn’t clear , its a difficult subject and I cant do it justice in a few lines,,,,,

[mashman]

Man this really does wind me up. As an apprentice (1974) I got paid 12 GB pounds a week. ($30 approx) just under a third of a qualified fitter/turner, and a 1/4 of a toolmaker's wages. Out of that I took home 10 quid, $5 was rent, $5 quid had to support me through the week. I eventually bought a moped (50cc with pedals) as my first bike.
These days? I see kids paying their parents $20 aweek for keep, and then going out and buying a bloody 10k WRX/Evo etc on the knock. I had to learn to budget to live, and hell yes I went without a lot of things for the first 2 years of work. A large amount of 16 yr old's these days are semi literate and incapable of carrying out instructions without 'pouting about it'..... They are so used to playing up at school and no one can 'touch them' when suddenly they can be sacked for the same shit they performed at school. I go shopping and maybe buy a coffee/bun etc in a cafe.. I can add the cost on my head faster than most 'youngsters' can do a sum on paper, or hells teeth, use the add feature on the till, and then watch them struggle to get the change correct from the till drawer.
I know even as an Apprentice, for the first 2 years (1 full time in technical college, 2nd block releaase and work 'experience') NO WAY was I 'productive' for my employer. By 1978 I was earning 80 UK pounds a week, at 21 when I had completed my City and Guilds (apprenticship) and taken a further 1 year Higher National cert as a 'Toolmaker' I was earning 160 GB pounds a week. (when I started my mates were earning between 20-25 quid a week, double what I got... by the end of my Apprenticeship I was earning double their adult wage. Most kids/youth want it all, NOW,,, they don't want to accept they do NOT do an adult days work.

As Stephen says you can't compare one generation with the other in regards to availability of anything. I was encouraged to travel and seek work abroad by my step mum as it was what she and her generation did back in the 60's. 20 years later and I'm fighting for the same jobs but with 10 times as many people. Knowing the seasons to go woulda helped too ... so this isn't anything new. I'm with you in regards to the fast cars etc... but as long as you can make the repayments, why wouldn't you? As "adults" we take out loans for houses and those toys so I see no reason that "kids" shoudln't be allowed to either. Other than they'd have a bit more $ in their pocket. Dunno about you but I spent anything I earned damned quickly once the rent and food had been covered.

Here's some food for thought... NZ's answer: make it cheaper for businesses to employee young people at the expense of others.

"Just to keep the rate of joblessness constant, the global economy will need to create 600 million jobs over the next eight years, according to a new World Bank report."

"“Looking ahead, no significant improvement appears in the offing,” states the IMF’s latest World Economic Outlook. Many workers have simply left the labor force. More than 620 billion young people have no job or aren’t being educated, the World Bank finds."

Time for a change of tack methinks... or are we gonna keep ignoring the obvious. I know, I know, that's a rhetorical question, but I hope that someday adults will actually become adults in some capacity other than demanding respect and money given that they have existed for longer than others. Funny that they demand respect from youth given the lack of respect offered in return.

[mashman]

However having a standard McDo job and then being paid less because of age....
Working for Starbucks making coffee, and being paid less because of age.....
Working for pretty much any retail business and being paid less because of age.....well you get my drift.

There is a huge difference between a paid training scheme and a standard job. And in a standard job (i.e. frying burgers, and manning a till at the warehouse etc ) for which youth can now be legally paid less then their older counterparts is age discrimination, with a nice potential for abuse, no matter how legalised.

Bang on for me. Tis such a shame that the amount of $ a person can command is limited by someone else's perception of what that is worth. Stupid adults playing stupid adult games and screwing kids over for a few bucks being justified by age ... it's almost as though they are being labelled as something other than human beings. fackin disgustin.