Youths ignore elderly man's pleas during home invasion

[caseye]

"Whilst most of that may well be true, most who can't read, write etc... don't necessarily resort to crime, neither do they necessarily to come from a household of criminals. Criminals and crime is situational.

If they have what they need, they won't commit crime. (you need money to have what you want)

... and in this case if these kids had had 400 bucks, they wouldn't have fucked this guy over"

Couldn't agree more.

If you I or anyone else has what they need we none of us would go out and bash,rob, kill to get MORE! ( what they WANT)

To me this is the fundamental difference, we all of us used to know what was right and wrong, today I seriously believe that many of today's kids literally don't because they've never seen wrongs righted and or had their parents/caregivers ( God I hate that word) properly( not beat the snot out of them) discipline,admonish or correct anyone else let alone themselves.

[geoffm]

Shame self defence is (for all intents and purposes) illegal in NZ. Adopt the "castle doctrine", where the assumption that anyone breaking into your place is assumed to plan on doing you harm, there is no obligation to retreat, and your house is a free - fire zone, and you ARE allowed to take 12g precautions. Being partially blind, it may not have helped in this case, but I bet it would reduce repeat offending in plenty of other cases.

[caseye]

Shame self defence is (for all intents and purposes) illegal in NZ. Adopt the "castle doctrine", where the assumption that anyone breaking into your place is assumed to plan on doing you harm, there is no obligation to retreat, and your house is a free - fire zone, and you ARE allowed to take 12g precautions. Being partially blind, it may not have helped in this case, but I bet it would reduce repeat offending in plenty of other cases.

It's a done deal in Australia!
Exactly that, whats more, if once the Police have assessed the case, they decide there will be no charges laid, that's what happens! Crim beware!
AT Last!
We are totally behind the times here in NZ when it comes to our rights, not victims rights, that comes after something has happened to us through no fault of our own.
Before it does or more correctly if it's going to, then surely to GOD in our own homes we should be able to use maximum prejudice to evict or otherwise remove an offender!
Na, mateeee, we live in NZ, here if you slug a dirty rotten thieving low life criminal in the back of the head with your baseball bat.In your home at two in the morning with your children asleep in their beds in their now invaded home.
It's YOU going to the cells while they get patched up and sent home on bail??? Now wait on, they're already on bail, for the exact same thing a while back.
How silly, what if they kill someone while they're on bail? Gee Willickers, that'll never happen!
Yeah Right.

[mashman]

Couldn't agree more.

If you I or anyone else has what they need we none of us would go out and bash,rob, kill to get MORE! ( what they WANT)

To me this is the fundamental difference, we all of us used to know what was right and wrong, today I seriously believe that many of today's kids literally don't because they've never seen wrongs righted and or had their parents/caregivers ( God I hate that word) properly( not beat the snot out of them) discipline,admonish or correct anyone else let alone themselves.

Aye... although these guys knew it was wrong. They knew it was a crime. They maybe even knew the guy himself. They made a stupid fucked up choice for some money, that's what really feckin irks me... so I'll not share your belief that many of today's kids don't know right from wrong (not wholly anyway). I agree in regards to not having had the right examples, but as I mentioned earlier, it's unfortunately how the world works. Offer the opportunity and they'll take it as I highly doubt that they're as stupid as people make out. T'would be good if they were caught and had the snot beaten out of 'em with a broomstick though.

[Coolz]

Well put Mashman. When you're not fostering funny financial philosophies you're casting pearls that make others sound like swine. Though in this case you may be casting coals on the burning fire of righteousness.

[caseye]

Stick around Coolz, this KB place gets to you.
I agree that mashman hits the nail right on the head sometimes. The good thing is that we don't have to think the same way or do the same things to want the exact same result.
Talking about anything is far better than sitting on your hands. Yes talk is cheap, but eventually someone is going to say OK, that looks like it'll work, lets do it!
Just for arguments sake there Coolz, the scenario I outlined in post 33, heres the guts of it.

"here if you slug a dirty rotten thieving low life criminal in the back of the head with your baseball bat.In your home at two in the morning with your children asleep in their beds in their now invaded home."

What would you do?

Righteous, no, got to be sin free and squeaky clean for that.

[oneofsix]

Aye... although these guys knew it was wrong. They knew it was a crime. They maybe even knew the guy himself. They made a stupid fucked up choice for some money, that's what really feckin irks me... so I'll not share your belief that many of today's kids don't know right from wrong (not wholly anyway). I agree in regards to not having had the right examples, but as I mentioned earlier, it's unfortunately how the world works. Offer the opportunity and they'll take it as I highly doubt that they're as stupid as people make out. T'would be good if they were caught and had the snot beaten out of 'em with a broomstick though.

Whilst agreeing with most of what you say the removal of money isn't the panacea to the ill. These fuck wits see an old fella got something they want and feel entitled to they are gona beat him up and take it. They aint got no respect and bleat on about respect, back to agreeing re right examples.

[Paul in NZ]

Very often these types of crimes are indicative of the state of society. Please note I’m not apologizing for these pricks or blaming society in any way shape or form BUT recent changes in the way we live are a factor.

In the past – there were more jobs for ordinary folks that didn’t require an advanced degree or even school certificate. If you were lucky you could even pick up an apprenticeship etc. Entering the workforce at 15 or 16 was not uncommon. In cases where these sad fucks had no decent male role models they would suddenly be in a work environment where they were at the bottom of the pecking order with a whole range of adults that they would normally ever associate with and were forced to interact with them.

There were reasons why the new kid got to make the tea etc (I still remember taking the orders for morning tea etc). Often you learnt a bit about respect and getting on with others even though you were not related or even liked by them. You learnt what it took to function as an adult. When I started work there were still guys working that had fought in WW2 and Korea – you were exposed to a lot of lived life experience.
These kids have probably never had a functional relationship with anyone other than family and school. If the family is dysfunctional and school gave up on them (fair enough – limited time and too many other kids) they may be 18 or so but they function worse than 14 year olds of the 1960’s and 1970’s. In some cases I’d argue that they are crippled for life and become unemployable.

Modern economics and free trade have moved these jobs offshore to places where wages are low but we are paying a terrible cost for the opportunity to purchase cheap crap. In some cases we are paying with our lives…

Now this isn’t an excuse for these wankers but rather an explanation of what may have gone wrong and the lack of empathy.

[Coolz]

Stick around Coolz, this KB place gets to you.
I agree that mashman hits the nail right on the head sometimes. The good thing is that we don't have to think the same way or do the same things to want the exact same result.
Talking about anything is far better than sitting on your hands. Yes talk is cheap, but eventually someone is going to say OK, that looks like it'll work, lets do it!
Just for arguments sake there Coolz, the scenario I outlined in post 33, heres the guts of it.

"here if you slug a dirty rotten thieving low life criminal in the back of the head with your baseball bat.In your home at two in the morning with your children asleep in their beds in their now invaded home."

What would you do?

Righteous, no, got to be sin free and squeaky clean for that.

I would leave that decision to my 200lb rotweiller

[mashman]

Well put Mashman. When you're not fostering funny financial philosophies you're casting pearls that make others sound like swine. Though in this case you may be casting coals on the burning fire of righteousness.

Ahhhh if only the two could be seperated. Cause and effect n all that. I did try a wee troll, but Iz captain obvious (even though most of the troll holds huge amounts of truth, heh).

Stick around Coolz, this KB place gets to you.
I agree that mashman hits the nail right on the head sometimes. The good thing is that we don't have to think the same way or do the same things to want the exact same result.
Talking about anything is far better than sitting on your hands. Yes talk is cheap, but eventually someone is going to say OK, that looks like it'll work, lets do it!
Just for arguments sake there Coolz, the scenario I outlined in post 33, heres the guts of it.

"here if you slug a dirty rotten thieving low life criminal in the back of the head with your baseball bat.In your home at two in the morning with your children asleep in their beds in their now invaded home."

What would you do?

Righteous, no, got to be sin free and squeaky clean for that.

+1 on agreing on the goal and taking various roads to getting there. Be feckin boring otherwise and we'd all be called Nigel, even the girlz. Tis a shame those who are in power deal with these sorts of problems by adding to the vast array fines and jail time, or even worse, home detention punishments that so clearly work .
I wish we could skip to that that looks like it'll work bit and thrice .

When I were back in T UK a few years ago there was a case of a family that had been bound and gagged whilst people ransacked their house and made threats to the family etc... not content with just taking what they came for and fucking off. I believe one of the perps is in a wheelchair for life as the father broke free, had a wee tussle with the fuckers, grabbed a cricket bat, yelled out to his brother (think it was his brother), who grabbed his cricket back and off they chased the fuckers down and beat one of them within an inch of his life. They deserved it in my book (well, pretty much anwyay), but one of the brothers walked with a short sentence and the other was jailed for 2 years (the sentencing maybe wrong as I'm going on memory). If someone had threatened my family, I'd rather they didn't get to live to fulfil that threat and could probably go too far to ensure it.

Whilst agreeing with most of what you say the removal of money isn't the panacea to the ill. These fuck wits see an old fella got something they want and feel entitled to they are gona beat him up and take it. They aint got no respect and bleat on about respect, back to agreeing re right examples.

I agree. But it all but halts THE major motive for crime (and that's at both ends of the scale and in between), main reason for divorce, main reason for poverty etc... attitudes may well change (or be easier to change) given that sort of breeding ground... What's worse: an old guy getting beaten for $400 or 400 people being ripped off, losing everything?

Very often these types of crimes are indicative of the state of society. Please note I’m not apologizing for these pricks or blaming society in any way shape or form BUT recent changes in the way we live are a factor.

In the past – there were more jobs for ordinary folks that didn’t require an advanced degree or even school certificate. If you were lucky you could even pick up an apprenticeship etc. Entering the workforce at 15 or 16 was not uncommon. In cases where these sad fucks had no decent male role models they would suddenly be in a work environment where they were at the bottom of the pecking order with a whole range of adults that they would normally ever associate with and were forced to interact with them.

There were reasons why the new kid got to make the tea etc (I still remember taking the orders for morning tea etc). Often you learnt a bit about respect and getting on with others even though you were not related or even liked by them. You learnt what it took to function as an adult. When I started work there were still guys working that had fought in WW2 and Korea – you were exposed to a lot of lived life experience.
These kids have probably never had a functional relationship with anyone other than family and school. If the family is dysfunctional and school gave up on them (fair enough – limited time and too many other kids) they may be 18 or so but they function worse than 14 year olds of the 1960’s and 1970’s. In some cases I’d argue that they are crippled for life and become unemployable.

Modern economics and free trade have moved these jobs offshore to places where wages are low but we are paying a terrible cost for the opportunity to purchase cheap crap. In some cases we are paying with our lives…

Now this isn’t an excuse for these wankers but rather an explanation of what may have gone wrong and the lack of empathy.

For a change I'm in just about total agreement with you

[jasonu]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...-home-invasion


disgusting...

Bloody disgraceful!

[awa355]

Very often these types of crimes are indicative of the state of society. Please note I’m not apologizing for these pricks or blaming society in any way shape or form BUT recent changes in the way we live are a factor.

In the past – there were more jobs for ordinary folks that didn’t require an advanced degree or even school certificate. If you were lucky you could even pick up an apprenticeship etc. Entering the workforce at 15 or 16 was not uncommon. In cases where these sad fucks had no decent male role models they would suddenly be in a work environment where they were at the bottom of the pecking order with a whole range of adults that they would normally ever associate with and were forced to interact with them.



Modern economics and free trade have moved these jobs offshore to places where wages are low but we are paying a terrible cost for the opportunity to purchase cheap crap. In some cases we are paying with our lives…

Now this isn’t an excuse for these wankers but rather an explanation of what may have gone wrong and the lack of empathy.

I agree totally. At least when the Railways had maintanance crews in so many small towns, The MOW were based everywhere, and the forestry industry employed so many pruning/thining gangs, there was work for a lot of people. that would never make rocket scientists.

Just getting back to these dimwits, they wont get more than maybe 5 years, allow an application for parole after 1/3rd served, and they will be out in 2 1/2 years.

Interesting comparison, In 1866, 2 persons were given 96 hours imprisonment with hard labour, for picking flowers in the Barbados cemetery ChCh.

Another youth was sentenced to 4 months at an Industrial school for " being of dispicable appearance and uncouth behaviour".

I guess public expectations of public behaviour was a bit different back then.

[mashman]

I guess public expectations of public behaviour was a bit different back then.

Perhaps lawyers didn't mind losing as long as justice was served... whereas a loss looks bad on the CV

[Oblivion]

What I dont get is why the shitheads are always let off. They say that they wouldn't have done that if they had 400$. There is a city down south that needs rebuilding. Give them the skills to get a job,and they can earn their own coin. Carrying timber, removing silt, helping with demolition and removal of debris. Theres heaps of stuff to do. Better than letting them sit pointlessly in the cells, and paying for flights down to CC would be cheaper than hiring someone to do the same job at 80$ an hour.

[Banditbandit]

Shame self defence is (for all intents and purposes) illegal in NZ.

That's crap ... If you kill someone and claim self defense ... you'd better be able to prove you had good cause ... and it has been done

You are legally allowed to defend yourself ... using sufficient force to defend yourself ... if someone is coming at you with a gun you can kill them (good chance they intend to shoot and kill you) .. if they are coming at you with a knife you can kill them (you have cause they are about to stab and kill you) ...

if they are coming at you with their bare hands you probably won't get away with killing them ... (Only if, before they attacked, you know they are a supreme black belt who can kill with their bare hands ...)

The gun shop turkey who shot the robber holding a gun was NOT prosecuted for shooting the robber .. he was prosecuted because when he was asked why he had a gun he said "self defence" .. Now that is a totally illegal reason for having a gun .. you can have a gun for sport (target - hunting) and incidentally use it to shoot the robber ... you can have a gun for a collection (and incidentally use it to shoot a robber ...) But the one reason you can not have a gun in GodZOne is for self defence.

You' thjinkl a gun shop owner would know this .. but whe the police asked "why did you have the gun there?" he said: "Self-defence ... " So - have al the guns you want for self defence .. but be aware that if you say that to a cop you are going down .. and if you do use one you'd better be able to back up why you used it .. and killing kids for tagging your fence won't cut it either (excuse the pun)