Benefit stand down time?

[Paul in NZ]

Her problem is that she really is unemployable for a lot of jobs. She has a history of mental health problems and drug abuse years ago, got committed to Tokanui mental hosp.

Under went the Electric shock treatment for quite a while, She can be quite sensible for most of the time, then a real nasty streak comes out.


She started school the same year as me, I've known her virtually all my life. But my 'Nice guy' quota is quickly running out.

And thats the issue. Often there is a strong sense of entitlement and arrested behavioral development. Shes likely a 60year old woman with the attitudes of an irresponsible teenager.

[Paul in NZ]

Oh crap .. even the wimpy liberal dickheads could not claim that one with a straight face ...

Yeah you can. As a result of her other issues there is a decent chance she has not got a clue what you are on about or what your problem is. Years ago a lot of people like this ended up in institutions but now they semi function in the community.

[awa355]

Yeah you can. As a result of her other issues there is a decent chance she has not got a clue what you are on about or what your problem is. Years ago a lot of people like this ended up in institutions but now they semi function in the community.

You've nailed this one on the head. I think mental illness is a far harder issue for lay people to come to grips with, and deal with than some other medical conditions.

[Banditbandit]

Naaa ... Paul ... see the conversation goes like this ...

Yes, and sometimes they're just plain lazy Paul.

Yup - and that is a disability in its self....

At this point I agreed with Katman ... then we learn there are other issues ...

Her problem is that she really is unemployable for a lot of jobs. She has a history of mental health problems and drug abuse years ago, got committed to Tokanui mental hosp.

Under went the Electric shock treatment for quite a while, She can be quite sensible for most of the time, then a real nasty streak comes out.


She started school the same year as me, I've known her virtually all my life. But my 'Nice guy' quota is quickly running out.

And thats the issue. Often there is a strong sense of entitlement and arrested behavioral development. Shes likely a 60year old woman with the attitudes of an irresponsible teenager.

So at this point I would agree with you .. but here you are referring to the other issues which me and Katman did not know about when we made out statements about laziness ... which you then react too ..

Yeah you can. As a result of her other issues there is a decent chance she has not got a clue what you are on about or what your problem is. Years ago a lot of people like this ended up in institutions but now they semi function in the community.

Yes ...

[Paul in NZ]

Its a long story but I shared a car ride akl to wgn with a lady who had worked as a prison warden, gone to uni and become a social worker and then gone back to become a psychiatrist.

It was really interesting and I didnt understand the half of it but what she was saying is that if you say, at 15 or 16 start taking drugs/booze/glue whatever and are out of it for 4 years. Eventually you get so bad society intervenes and places you in jail and you get weened you off whatever it was.

You come out of jail and are straight but you are not a fully functional 20 something. All those years your mates from school were learning to open bank accounts, buy groceries, rent a flat and evolving their emotional side and coping with life are missing. You are 21 with the emotional age of 16 (or worse due to the damage from the substances)

Generally you look like a normal fully functional person but you can't cope with 4 or 5 years of growing up in an instant and you have none of the peer/support group your mates would have had.

So - you find something else and whammo it recurs and you have 60 year olds that are functionally 14...

Add in the underlying problems and its a real mess and often this is why we have child abuse. Parents who are emotionally / functionally immature infants themselves...

It takes a LOT to undo these issues and frankly we as a society are just getting swamped by it.

[Drew]

That's all terribly interesting Paul. Tell me though, why should the 'swamping' be the problem of society?

The people who chose to get 'out of it' for four years...Well...Chose. Fuck 'em. Prime candidates for medical testing I say. At least that way they are CONTRIBUTING to society.

[Akzle]

why should the 'swamping' be the problem of society?

something to do with society created the problems in the first instance.

i'm bringing this one back to money. and money is society's tom-fuckery.

90+% of problems with drugs are caused by their being illegal.

if the kid could smoke dope/drop acid/inject heroin under his toenails without the attentions of the policy enforcement dept., he wouldn't waste the 4 years in the big house.
he will either: run out of friends and money to support/excuse his lifestyle and adapt; or: maintain a balance between recreational drug use, and being a useful cunt so those around him don't give up and kick him in the balls; or: give up the drugs and be "normal upstanding citizen"

i reckon...

[Drew]

something to do with society created the problems in the first instance.

Fuck off. No one forced them to get fucked up for however long.

Not my problem.

[Akzle]

Fuck off. No one forced them to get fucked up for however long.

Not my problem.

but it IS your problem.
you're either paying the cops, lawyers, judges, wardens, rehab, psychiatric assessment, doctors, parole officers etc
or.
not.

i know which i'd prefer if i was you.

[Subike]

Fuck off. No one forced them to get fucked up for however long.

Not my problem.

Agree on a personal level its not your problem, but as a community it is our problem
Sadly sometimes the justice system does create victims out of the persons they incarcerate to protect the majority.
Not offering this as an excuse, Not saying its the P C "Poor Johnny" syndrome, we have enough of that.
It's just a fact it does happen, and as said by other we end up with adults that have no social skills, no understanding of how to interact decently with the opposite sex, absolute ignorance on how to raise and educate children. Yet these adults are pushed into the community expected to behave , act, interact and be as productive as the person who had the opportunity to learn all the skills needed for life.
Then they fail, the worst being they abuse kids, they commit violent offenses, the courts are visited daily by these social victims who have to be responsible for their actions. And the circle goes around again.
The woman sounds as if she may be one of these victims, sad, Because our communities have been eroded to the point we don't care about our neighbors anymore, its all self. What can be done for her? I have no suggestions.
As individuals, we may not be the cause of this problem, as a community we may well be.
Whats the Answer? I have no fucking idea at all.

[Drew]

Agree on a personal level its not your problem, but as a community it is our problem
Sadly sometimes the justice system does create victims out of the persons they incarcerate to protect the majority.
Not offering this as an excuse, Not saying its the P C "Poor Johnny" syndrome, we have enough of that.
It's just a fact it does happen, and as said by other we end up with adults that have no social skills, no understanding of how to interact decently with the opposite sex, absolute ignorance on how to raise and educate children. Yet these adults are pushed into the community expected to behave , act, interact and be as productive as the person who had the opportunity to learn all the skills needed for life.
Then they fail, the worst being they abuse kids, they commit violent offenses, the courts are visited daily by these social victims who have to be responsible for their actions. And the circle goes around again.
The woman sounds as if she may be one of these victims, sad, Because our communities have been eroded to the point we don't care about our neighbors anymore, its all self. What can be done for her? I have no suggestions.
As individuals, we may not be the cause of this problem, as a community we may well be.
Whats the Answer? I have no fucking idea at all.

I don't care what the answer is. It is not my problem.

I resent the fact that society is making it my problem, by throwing away my tax dollars on bulshit hippy solutions, that do not, can not, and will never work.

[oneofsix]

I don't care what the answer is. It is not my problem.

I resent the fact that society is making it my problem, by throwing away my tax dollars on bulshit hippy solutions, that do not, can not, and will never work.

Society isn't making it your problem, you are. As long as you pay your taxes the rest of society doesn't care if you bury your head in the sand, actually quite a few members of society would like you to but that's another story, but you are making it your problem by caring how society, those that care to have an influence at least, chooses to try and manage the issue to prevent bigger problems.

[Drew]

Society isn't making it your problem, you are. As long as you pay your taxes the rest of society doesn't care if you bury your head in the sand, actually quite a few members of society would like you to but that's another story, but you are making it your problem by caring how society, those that care to have an influence at least, chooses to try and manage the issue to prevent bigger problems.

I care? Bigger problems? Pray, what might those be?

[oneofsix]

I care?

Yeah amazing huh? But you do keep posting on these threads so you must care

Bigger problems? Pray, what might those be?

Arguably those that pray are the bigger problems, but them again they would beg to differ and argue they were part of the solution. The prayers certainly do a lot of good caring work with the not so with it types.

[Paul in NZ]

but it IS your problem.
you're either paying the cops, lawyers, judges, wardens, rehab, psychiatric assessment, doctors, parole officers etc
or.
not.

i know which i'd prefer if i was you.

True..

Why does it matter? Hmm… Well unfortunately since none of us live in a bubble it does matter a lot. If you exist in this country you pay tax and your kids will use the education system and possibly you will be unlucky enough to need govt assistance by way of a benefit or perhaps the health system.

All of these systems and more to boot are being impacted.

By way of a slightly similar example... As previously mentioned two of our grandkids live with us. One is a special wee guy and he needs a bit of extra help. Lets just call it autism as a blanket word but those who know will tell you that this covers a huge spectrum and is always associated with other things. They get called ‘label’s and he has 5 of them. So what happens is that he is assessed and special funding is allocated to him along with a team of specialists. There are regular meetings of the whole team to review things.

This is all based on best practice and should mean that the wee guy has a decent hope of leading an independent and productive life later on. In practice it fails him miserably. In 2 years he has had countless speech therapists and physiotherapists assigned to him and not one appointment. Same with psychologists not one minute of one on one. Why? The ministry pays shit so their employees use every minute of their time finding better jobs. The school gets extra funding to purchase teaching aids specifically for him – again, not one has ever been seen. He gets a few hours teacher aid assigned to him and that’s eagerly grabbed for because it makes life easier for the teacher but the aide is often used to cover other kids as well. The only hope is for us to work harder to provide help and he has improved somewhat – that results in his assistance being cut.

In short – heaps of money is being spent on meetings and such but hardly any effort ever gets to him and he has zero hope of achieving an independent life. At adolescence he will be unemployable and bored. He will find some other poor soul and they (having no ability to consider consequences) will produce a child and…

So why do you care? Well its not only very very expensive but your kids will suffer because schools are full of these kids and your kids won’t get the attention they need either. Your taxes will support them but never improve them because frankly they lack the will to do it. He is in fact a valuable asset to them as he keeps them employed until they can find a better job away from the coalface in admin or policy. Then we get policy makers with zero practical experience (except at work avoidance) and so on.

And the thing is - none of these systems actually work... Oh - you can point this out and moan or even helpfully suggest improvements but if you do you and your kid gets punished severely... So you soon learn to shut up and play the game which is what the 60year old is doing. You end up running just to be on the run....