Chopper project - I need some directions

[carburator]

sorry been busy for a few days. apologise if things are out of order
in list of issues

VTNZ have nothing to do with LVC you need to contact a certifing engineer.

here is the murky waters.. There are currently no rules and reg's for motorbikes
built for LVC its pretty much at the discrection of the owner. The hotrod builders
guide and LVC website for cars is heavy reading however its your life..

what the certifing engineer is looking for is good build pratices and methods.
materials come in there as well, the rule of thumb is the added pipe
( in your case the hard tail ) should be of the same diamater and thickness of
the original frame or greater.

your rear axle plates has been fish plated to the tube which is a good pratice
what would be good is clear photographs of the rear hard tail to the original
frame ( is the load path being spread and are the load forces being meet in the
right plane ) ( basic tube frame building )

second thing they are going to look at and this is the first thing you are going to
check after reading this is the tracking alignment of the rear wheel to the front.
and also headstock alingment to the rear axle these are two things the certifing
engineer is going to look at. if the tracking of the wheels and vertical of the headstock
is out the bike certianly will not handle right.

The current reason a lot of peaple build bobbers or trackers is you can delete
most of the factory brackets to get a clean frame or dock the frame and add
a frame loop which does not interfer with the orginal suspenion mounting points.

Media blasting ( plastic media or soda ) does not warp the frame sand blasting
done properly does'nt either however I find the first two methods to be better
for paint finish but also cleaning.

[Terror]

If you already have the skills "just rebuilt a launch and engine" then rebuilding the Triumph won't be a big stretch for you.

Just make sure you do check all tolerances and use a tourqe wrench on everything the book say's you should "and DON'T use second hand parts if you don't know their history.

My own 650 engine cost me around $3000 to rebuild doing 90% of it myself.

Your frame is for a 650,,,which is a better engine than the 750,,,but you never know what the top end an cams will be until you get into it.

If you have round inspection covers "front an rear" on the head "it's a 650 head,,one single inspection plate "front an rear" "it's a 750 head".

From there you work your way down checking everything because most of the top end can be mixed an matched.

In fact it can be a F'ing nightmare working out exactly what some people did to these engines back in the day.

There will be an ID stamping on the right hand side of the crank cases just below the barrels,,,but that is only a starting point due to that "mix an match" thing.

If that stamping has been messed with in any way then the process of getting it all legal and on the books can be VERY drawn out.

A couple of close up pic's of the engine. "one from either side an a lot of people here will be able to give you a very good idea of what your dealing with.

Thanks for the thread.

How is it you know the frame is for a 650? The frame & engine do look quite similar to one currently on Trademe (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-539072325.htm) but mine is obviously a lot more raked.


$3000 isn't bad for an engine rebuild, i'd obviously expect it to be looking and running pretty good after that! I did manage to locate a stamp on the side fo the engine which says 'XH22707' but I'm not sure I understand the number sequencing as I am having trouble finding anything..

I will see if I have time to crack it open this weekend and see if it looks like it's worth my time. The exterier is very dirty / weathered and it almost looks as if the crome covers would need to be recromed or replaced.

I will also try and get some images up for you all soon, my digital camera has died which means I will need to get my laptop down there to use the camera on it..

Cheers!

[Terror]

Well quick update..

I have found a bloke on the North Shore who is going to handle the soda blasting for me. - Autoblast Limited, he quoted around $250 over the phone to blast it back to metal and a further $200 or so to eproxy prime (I don't think I will get prime done). He knows a bunch of engineers who I am able to book in to inspect the welds once it's baremetalled for LVC. if the engineer is happy with it go straight to the paint shop, if not...well we will tackle that problem should it arrise...

So...I've also been doing a bit of reading about powdercoating or paint and have deciced to get the frame powdercoated. A friend has referred me to Powderworks in Onehunga, and they quoted around $350 to zinc dip and coat the frame, tank and guards. The frame needs to be freshly blasted if I am powdercoating, so this may or may not mean another round of blasting, pending the above engineer report. I will probably get the front struts powdercoated too rather than going chrome due to the work thats involved.. I will strip the paint off and see what shape the struts are in soon before commiting though.

The above is all on hold due to the Chrismas break, but over the next few weeks I plan on shopping for bits and bobs and shifting focus on the engine.

[Paul in NZ]

How is it you know the frame is for a 650? The frame & engine do look quite similar to one currently on Trademe (http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/moto...-539072325.htm) but mine is obviously a lot more raked.


$3000 isn't bad for an engine rebuild, i'd obviously expect it to be looking and running pretty good after that! I did manage to locate a stamp on the side fo the engine which says 'XH22707' but I'm not sure I understand the number sequencing as I am having trouble finding anything..

I will see if I have time to crack it open this weekend and see if it looks like it's worth my time. The exterier is very dirty / weathered and it almost looks as if the crome covers would need to be recromed or replaced.

I will also try and get some images up for you all soon, my digital camera has died which means I will need to get my laptop down there to use the camera on it..

Cheers!

It looks very like a 63 to 69 650 front frame diamond with a hardtail added. A 70 has a small triangular plate for the front motor mount, earlier has the welded bracket. 71 onwards has a large diameter tube as the spine of the frame that carries the oil and twin down tubes...

XH22707 is Dec 72/73. There will be a model designation in front of the numbers which should be stamped into a raised boss with 'Triumph' repeatedly stamped into it. This could be T120R, T120RV or TR6R, TR6RV etc etc etc Anything with TR6 is a single carb 650cc, T120 650cc twin carb, V indicated 5 speed gearbox, R indicates american or export spec. At that time it us unlikely to be a 750 (T140) although if it is be careful as it could be one of the oddball not quite a 750 and oops we cocked the new gearbox up models.

Lots of 650's have aftermarket 750 kits on them which vary in quality and the only sure way to tell is to lift the lid and compare. The last 650's had the same rocker box arrangement as the 750's which was an improvement but if it has a T140 top end grafted on it will have 2 socket headed bolts between the rocker boxes holding the head on as all factory 750's (apart from T120RT) have a 10 stud head and 650's a 9 stud head.

$3K is light for a decent rebuild but if its just a top end it will be about right. (rebore, pistons, valves, guides etc etc)

Read off the rest of the number and I can tell you more.

Post a picture of the engine as well

[Paul in NZ]

Nope - don't paint or chrome a darn thing until you have everything sitting in place and the engine running and the bike is mobile. They will want to see the welds in the raw and ALWAYS do a dry build before painting. For a custom, powder is too dull, get glossy 2 pack...

[Terror]

It looks very like a 63 to 69 650 front frame diamond with a hardtail added. A 70 has a small triangular plate for the front motor mount, earlier has the welded bracket. 71 onwards has a large diameter tube as the spine of the frame that carries the oil and twin down tubes...

XH22707 is Dec 72/73. There will be a model designation in front of the numbers which should be stamped into a raised boss with 'Triumph' repeatedly stamped into it. This could be T120R, T120RV or TR6R, TR6RV etc etc etc Anything with TR6 is a single carb 650cc, T120 650cc twin carb, V indicated 5 speed gearbox, R indicates american or export spec. At that time it us unlikely to be a 750 (T140) although if it is be careful as it could be one of the oddball not quite a 750 and oops we cocked the new gearbox up models.

Lots of 650's have aftermarket 750 kits on them which vary in quality and the only sure way to tell is to lift the lid and compare. The last 650's had the same rocker box arrangement as the 750's which was an improvement but if it has a T140 top end grafted on it will have 2 socket headed bolts between the rocker boxes holding the head on as all factory 750's (apart from T120RT) have a 10 stud head and 650's a 9 stud head.

$3K is light for a decent rebuild but if its just a top end it will be about right. (rebore, pistons, valves, guides etc etc)

Read off the rest of the number and I can tell you more.

Post a picture of the engine as well

Thanks for the insight Paul, as soon as I got home I scrubbed back the area around where I found the XH stamp and found the rest of it! It says T140V, so based on the detail you gave that makes it a 750cc 5 speed, which may also be a 4 speed! Well that's promising I guess, I think it needs a lot of work! I will see if I have time tonight to remove the head... might need some CRC as the nuts are rather corroded.

[Coolz]

Also makes it a Bonneville. If the gear change is on the left it's a 5 speed. If the intake ports are splayed it's pre '79.

[Road kill]

Paul pretty much said it all "I only picked it as a 650 frame because it's not an oil in frame and I don't believe the 750's came in the earlier non oil in frame tanks.

Your right in that your T140V engine could be either 4 or 5 speed "but a T140V should be left hand change no matter how many gears it is.

I've had a 1973 T140V that was a four speed that I converted to 5 speed soon after I bought it.

If it is a 4 speed and you want to go 5,,you will need the 5 speed right hand "inner" gear box cover to go along with the 5 speed cluster.

Other than that it's a straight swop.

Today I was looking through the HD XL Forums and there's an early Triumph framed bike in there with an XLH Iron head engine in it "so I guess it can be done if you'd really like a V twin engine,,,,and a challenge.

[Paul in NZ]

If its a T140 then it should be a 5 speed. ALL T140's are 5 speeds. They were all right hand change until 76 or so when then moved it to the left. Thats when the rear disk arrived. ANY T140 with a 4 speed transmission has had it robbed for something else. (5 speeders are always in demand and 4 speeders are common and cheap)

However this is one of the earliest T140's I've ever heard of as they were officially introduced in '73 (obviously made in 72 though). Because its a very very early T140 it might be one of the weird harold 728cc ones and it might have the troublesome 1st generation 5 speed as fitted to some of the 650's. The gearbox is not an issue as there are several fixes known and Triumph issued an upgrade and service bulletin about it. HOWEVER not all the gears/shafts are 100% compatible with the later ones. The odd engine bore size can cause issues purchasing parts but British spares should be aware of it if any of the good triumph guys are still there.

These very very early bikes are rare and not sought after cos they are a PIA....

The T140's were toned down a bit due to issues with the main bearings. That was solved with better bearings but they never went back to the hotter cams etc etc. In stock form a T140 is a very sweet thing but lots of home tuners new better and added all sorts of crap in an effort to ruin the engines faster. God knows what horrors lurk in yours so be very very careful.

Another thing to watch is the head. Apart from the usual issues with valve guides, they had push in headers which work loose and leak (hi temp silicon) on assembly. The exhaust ports can get ovalised making sealing troublesome particularly in customs where the builder has not added a stabilizing mount on the header and removed the balance pipe for 'looks'...

If it has sat for any length of time you MUST split the cases and empty the sludge trap in the crankshaft. If you dont you are wasting your time. Basically its a cavity design left over from the era of old fashioned oils and no oil filters. Particles in the oil are flung out of suspension and sit in this 'trap'. It should be cleaned out each time the crank is removed. The trouble happens when the engine sits for long periods and the crud dries out and breaks up. Newer oils have higher detergent levels (keeps particles in suspension to be removed by the oil filter) and they pick up these big chunks of crap and carry them into the oil galleries/big ends etc and its all over red rover...

You really need a full strip and clean.

Also consider a MORGO oil pump (higher flow rate = happy plain bearing big ends) and an aftermarket oil filter kit. Electronic ignition is a good idea too. It should have a 3 phase alternator but higher capacity ones are available now if you want electric do dads...

Let me know if you need more info.

[Road kill]

Paul my T140V was an American import and it was a 4 speed,,,I was told it was a limited model called a Bonniville/Commodore in the states.

It was a 73 and it was a left hand gear change.

The information came from "Brittish Spares" in wellington when I bought the 5 speed cluster from them.

No idea if that's true or not "but it's what I was told.

[Paul in NZ]

Paul my T140V was an American import and it was a 4 speed,,,I was told it was a limited model called a Bonniville/Commodore in the states.

It was a 73 and it was a left hand gear change.

The information came from "Brittish Spares" in wellington when I bought the 5 speed cluster from them.

No idea if that's true or not "but it's what I was told.

I have never heard of that and never seen it in my reference books (sorry train spotter hat) or seen one on the road BUT thats not to say they don't exist. Its odd though because the stamping 'V' means 5 speed...

This has jogged my memory though and left shift was from Aug 1975 (made for sale in 76) so its hard to imagine an earlier one given the amount of special parts required...

And I was wrong about 728cc. The (nominally) 750cc engine was near identical to the 650cc power unit. But the first T140s were (for production reasons) actually 724cc. Within months however, this became 744cc—which remained the cubic capacity of the Bonnies and Tigers until the bitter end.

There are several possibilities. It could be a fleet purchase bike (police, armed forces etc) and 4 speeds were specified, a demo bike for above, built while they were figuring out what was wrong with the 5 speeds or it was assembled around when the workers sit in happened out of whatever was laying about. NVT were desperate for bikes to sell and some bikes also escaped during the sit in and before the co-op got going so who really knows. It wouldn't be the only odd ball.

I've always wanted a TR7T

Anyway - versions I know of are...


Triumph T140 & Triumph TR7 models and variants

T140V Bonneville 750cc

T140E Bonneville 750cc
TR7 Tiger 750cc
T140J Jubilee Bonneville 750cc
T140D Bonneville Special 750cc
T140E Bonneville Electro 750cc
T140ES Bonneville (Electric Start ) 750cc
TR65 Thunderbird 650cc
T140ES Bonneville Executive 750cc
TR7 Tiger Trail 750cc
TR65T Tiger Trail 650cc
T140AV Bonneville (Anti Vibration)

(Police model) 750cc (oft with a SAINT badge)
T140W TSS 750cc
T140LE Royal Wedding Bonneville 750cc
TSX 750cc
Harris Bonneville 750cc

[Terror]

Paul pretty much said it all "I only picked it as a 650 frame because it's not an oil in frame and I don't believe the 750's came in the earlier non oil in frame tanks.

Your right in that your T140V engine could be either 4 or 5 speed "but a T140V should be left hand change no matter how many gears it is.

I've had a 1973 T140V that was a four speed that I converted to 5 speed soon after I bought it.

If it is a 4 speed and you want to go 5,,you will need the 5 speed right hand "inner" gear box cover to go along with the 5 speed cluster.

Other than that it's a straight swop.

Today I was looking through the HD XL Forums and there's an early Triumph framed bike in there with an XLH Iron head engine in it "so I guess it can be done if you'd really like a V twin engine,,,,and a challenge.

I've now pretty much decided to stay with the Tiumph engine, it's probably going to require more work but I do actually like the unknowns, challenges and the way it sits in the frame!. There also seems to be quite a lot of parts availiable on Ebay for this model.

I tried to free the nuts on the head last night but they are quite firmly on, I will need to get some CRC before I go any further. once I can get the head and other bits and bobs off and inpect the inside I should have a much better indication of how to proceed.

[Road kill]

Hmmm,the guy from BSpares also said what they called the Commodore was used in presidentual parades an such "so I guess that would mean police or military.

To tell the truth I never really gave it much though outside the fact I'd really wanted a 73 5 speed and I only bought the bike because I'd crashed it during a test ride and felt obligated to buy it after that.

The reason I cashed it was the selector Pawl spring was very weak and as I'd come up on a corner I changed down an the thing dropped straight through 3th and into 2nd gear "then when I tried to kick it back up it went into a false neutral and I then drifted wide into the gravel an decked it at low speed.

The fix was simply to remove the plunger that goes up through the bottem of the box "give the spring a stretch and then put it back in.

Over the next six months I replaced the gear box,all wheel bearing,stearing head bearings,the whole clutch and primary assembly,chains sprockets,all rubbers,both mufflers,the carbs,and a lot of other little bits an pieces so that I ended up with the stock 1973 5 speed Bonnie that I'd wanted in the first place.

People say some of us look back with rose tinted glasses when it comes to British bikes "but during the 4 years I owned that bike it was always very reliable for me.

The reason I sold it is another story "but it involved an SD900 Ducati that was part of a mates divorce settlement and was to good to turn down

[Terror]

If its a T140 then it should be a 5 speed. ALL T140's are 5 speeds. They were all right hand change until 76 or so when then moved it to the left. Thats when the rear disk arrived. ANY T140 with a 4 speed transmission has had it robbed for something else. (5 speeders are always in demand and 4 speeders are common and cheap)

However this is one of the earliest T140's I've ever heard of as they were officially introduced in '73 (obviously made in 72 though). Because its a very very early T140 it might be one of the weird harold 728cc ones and it might have the troublesome 1st generation 5 speed as fitted to some of the 650's. The gearbox is not an issue as there are several fixes known and Triumph issued an upgrade and service bulletin about it. HOWEVER not all the gears/shafts are 100% compatible with the later ones. The odd engine bore size can cause issues purchasing parts but British spares should be aware of it if any of the good triumph guys are still there.

These very very early bikes are rare and not sought after cos they are a PIA....

The T140's were toned down a bit due to issues with the main bearings. That was solved with better bearings but they never went back to the hotter cams etc etc. In stock form a T140 is a very sweet thing but lots of home tuners new better and added all sorts of crap in an effort to ruin the engines faster. God knows what horrors lurk in yours so be very very careful.

Another thing to watch is the head. Apart from the usual issues with valve guides, they had push in headers which work loose and leak (hi temp silicon) on assembly. The exhaust ports can get ovalised making sealing troublesome particularly in customs where the builder has not added a stabilizing mount on the header and removed the balance pipe for 'looks'...

If it has sat for any length of time you MUST split the cases and empty the sludge trap in the crankshaft. If you dont you are wasting your time. Basically its a cavity design left over from the era of old fashioned oils and no oil filters. Particles in the oil are flung out of suspension and sit in this 'trap'. It should be cleaned out each time the crank is removed. The trouble happens when the engine sits for long periods and the crud dries out and breaks up. Newer oils have higher detergent levels (keeps particles in suspension to be removed by the oil filter) and they pick up these big chunks of crap and carry them into the oil galleries/big ends etc and its all over red rover...

You really need a full strip and clean.

Also consider a MORGO oil pump (higher flow rate = happy plain bearing big ends) and an aftermarket oil filter kit. Electronic ignition is a good idea too. It should have a 3 phase alternator but higher capacity ones are available now if you want electric do dads...

Let me know if you need more info.

Hi Paul,

Yeah the gear change is on the right hand side. I haven't attempted to shift through the gears, but I assume they will be all gummed up. I like that comment - "These very very early bikes are rare and not sought after cos they are a PIA...." It's deinifitely a FULL rebuild job. The bloke I brought it off said it had been sitting for about 6 years with him, and at least the same with the owner before. Dreamers I guess. There's probably quite a few exterior parts (cases etc) I will replace as the condition is so poor and I can't be bothered trying to clean them up. I suspect this has had an electronic ignition previously, as some old coils and bits came with it.. Hardly a wiring loom as the guy suggested on TM, but that's okay!

I'm going to pop into Dick Smith on saturday and buy a new camera so I can take some photos for you all to see. Also, I like to have a camera on deck when rebuilding engines, just so I can take snaps of the pull down process the full way through as my memory is a little hazey some times..

Cheers!

[Terror]

Double Post