American gun mania

[Delerium]

Might be the type of guns they are allowed. Those that own "assault rifles" don't do so for the automatic feature but because they look military and make the small penis feel like big guns. Just like Pit Bulls might be able to be "nice" dogs as many pure bred lovers claim however who tends to want to own the dog with the "vicious" streak and why, it the same group of small dicks that will want the assault rifles. Not sure but my feeling here is that Canada doesn't allow assault rifles nor hand guns. The Swiss have more guns per head than the USA but again restrict types and also train the owner, most through military service.

Bollocks. Military designed weapons are created to operate in much harsher conditions than sporting rifles. That is part of the reason why some people prefer them. Oh by the way, I use them all the time. It doesnt give me a big ego, it doesnt make me feel like the big man or better than anybody else.

[98tls]

And deny the proliferation of guns have any part on the proceedings

Well i guess they could make guns illegal,when enough children have been killed by bombs made in the kitchen using instructions off the internet they could ban the internet and even kitchens i guess.Mexico has vastly different ideas re guns,fuck all crime in Mexico...

[caseye]

Might be the type of guns they are allowed. Those that own "assault rifles" don't do so for the automatic feature but because they look military and make the small penis feel like big guns. Just like Pit Bulls might be able to be "nice" dogs as many pure bred lovers claim however who tends to want to own the dog with the "vicious" streak and why, it the same group of small dicks that will want the assault rifles. Not sure but my feeling here is that Canada doesn't allow assault rifles nor hand guns. The Swiss have more guns per head than the USA but again restrict types and also train the owner, most through military service.

K just so everyone is on the same playing field.

No ordinary citizen of New Zealand who isn't in the military is allowed to own or independently operate fully automatic weapons here in NZ. In relation to the underlined and emboldened part of the quote above.

So, while many have semi automatic weapons, a gun/rifle that can fire as often as you manually pull the trigger ,until the magazine is empty, many also have military styled and or look alike/assault weapons.These are far hardier and more capable of taking knocks and continuing to operate efficiently under our outdoors conditions.NZ Having some of the harshest climates for guns of any sort, this becomes a factor when buying one.
None of these people can own or put to a weapon capable of SEMI AUTOMATIC fire, a magazine, with a capacity of more than 7 rounds.

Unless they are the holders of yet another category of firearms licence which allows them to own and put to a semi automatic weapon, a magazine, larger than 7 rounds.

In relation to goat/deer/pig culling, as opposed to hunting.
A semi automatic weapon allows the user to destroy far more animals than a single shot bolt action. A lever action, or a pump action weapon also allows more animals to be destroyed.
People who go out and cull animals from farms and DOC lands do so with the express intention of eradicating as many animals as possible, these sorts of weapons allow that to happen, quickly, cleanly and in most cases humanely.
These animals roam in packs, large packs, sometimes as many as a hundred or more, so yes a semi auto is the preferred weapon, a military styled or assault type is better again.
This sort of activity happens all over NZ on a daily basis, out in the country our forests and parks are in real danger of being overrun by these animals.
That said, hunters of trophy deer go to great lengths to get into areas where the big heads are and they usually carry quite expensive bolt action type rifles.
It is a matter of choice, because those who can choose have the correct licenses and have well and truly been vetted by Police.
Their status as firearms owners is a matter of record and the slightest hint that something is wrong with them, their home/family life and these days their guns are the first things the Police come and remove.
Yes this does happen.
Crying foul everytime a nutcase goes and kills people with a gun is OK, it's natural to say, shit what do we do about this.
It's not natural to make yet more Draconian laws that only apply to law abiding gun owners.
Generally, they are not the ones who commit these sorts of crimes.

If you want to stop these incidents from happening, go out into the communities where it is happening and actively seek out the illegal gun traders, the criminals who are always armed with full auto weapons and or any other sort, take them off them, then remove THEM/ the criminals from the streets for good.
Further, re establish a gun register, here in NZ the gubbermint of the day decided to abolish our gun register. A book in every police station that recorded the sale of every registered firearm in the country.
One look at that book and your local bobby knew who owned what in his town.
Not anymore.
In the US of A such a thing does sort of exist, they need to make their licencing as hard as it is here, that would begin to put the squeeze on the availability of weapons of all sorts. The sheer size of the States and the numbers of weapons there now makes anything short of all out war being declared on illegal gun ownership inefficient and most likely to fail.
To simply take all guns of ordinary citizens who have a licence to say they legally own them, does not stop this sort of thing happening, all it does, is make the red necks go out back and bury their prized weapons in the back yard in case trouble comes.
There are many aspects to this sort of crime, what started it, how did they get access to the weapons used, why did they do it.
The answers to these questions give rise to other problems.

Do you mentally monitor everyone who has access to firearms. Not done anywhere in the world, how could you?
But you could ask gun owners to keep their eyes and ears open for signs of other owners going tropo, without fear of what may happen to them if they do say something.
Most gun owners are members of gun clubs, this would work if it was operated honestly.

Do you physically examine the storage capability of every gun owner and ensure that they Do keep their weapons in those safes? We do here in NZ.
But just once when a weapon is left out and johnny points it at his mate, it goes off and the poor kid is dead.
The owner should then be stripped of his/her ability to own and operate firearms forever and should do time in jail.A long time.
I agree with that.

More questions than answers here aye!
The answer is not more laws that only affect the vast majority of honest law abiding, mentally stable gun owners, their choice to own and operate firearms and have more expensive licences that come with heavier burdens of responsibility should continue to be just that. As long as they do their part, they should be left alone to enjoy their weapons as they have always done, legally and safely.

The answer lies in getting to those people who illegally have these guns and removing them for good, both the gun and the user.
The scale of this course of action is massive, but nothing is going to change until it is begun!

Thats my opinion.

[oneofsix]

Throw a line out for a minnow and catch whoppers.

Actually I agree with your sentiment caseye. I didn't mean to refer to the assault styled hunting rifle, put those in the class of the pit bull pure breed lover as opposed to tough guy dick head. In NZ we have the licencing checks to keep the dick heads from getting their hands on the assault styled rifle and therefore negate the that part of my statement.

[imac]

It is not about guns but they are an easy target.
While there is the proliferation of first person shoot em up games, an un willingness for parents or society to discipline or place boundaries on kids, an insulated and un caring society then we will continue to have amuck killings.

Unfortunately banning things looks like something is being done and the politicians will go for it. The real problems are so much harder to resolve are firmly entrenched in society and are getting worse

[oneofsix]

It is not about guns but they are an easy target.
While there is the proliferation of first person shoot em up games

what was that about easy targets?

[Swoop]

the killer of this particular mass shooting got the gun of his mothers whom he killed before he went on his shooting spree.
His mothers guns and rifles were all legal, and she was the one who took the killer to legal target practice etc.
It was a 20 year old, who took the legal weapons of his mother to kill.

So, we should be treating this person for what he is/was, a theif and a murderer. This is a mental health issue.

I have absolutly no idea about guns and rifles

The problem is that the majority of people do not. They do not appreciate the fact that baying crowds encite lawmakers to get their pens out and start to write the crappiest, most useless laws ever imagined and which fail to address the true heart of the problem. (See above)

seek out the … criminals who are always armed with full auto weapons .

Unfortunately not true. How many full-auto incidents have there EVER been in NZ? I can think of one (Bassett Rd – and even then it was set to semi-auto fire) The average crim is armed with a stolen, sawn-off shotgun or an illegal pistol at best.

Further, re establish a gun register, here in NZ the gubbermint of the day decided to abolish our gun register.

The best thing ever, was getting rid of that balls-up. Inaccurate, never up to date and innefectual. Canada has just abolished their national gun registry because of the same reasons! Also, it was costing billions of Canadian dollars to run.


In America the issue is the same as anywhere else: Mental health issues.

Why are some schools attacked? Sadly part of the reason is a dis-armed section of the population (schools) are an easy target for the mentally deranged. Other areas of American society have increased the ability for citizens to carry concealed firearms and in some states there has been a decrease in crime after this has been enacted.

A sad day for all those affected by this lunatic thief and murderer.

[caseye]

In reply Swoop.

No full auto weapons in the hands of civilians in NZ, well actually! But that comment in context of what I was referring to USA's latest outrage, is properly sheeted home to that place not NZ.

The gun register!
Yep Canada have just thrown it out because it cost too much.
Question, what is too much?
Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones. You find that out from good intelligence and respect of the general public and an unafraid shooting fraternity who will actively monitor their own and let authorities know if a gunny is heading off the rails.
The trick is to make sure that gun owners are not afraid of saying something and to keep hammering away at the crims and the gun runners who think they can get away with it.
The biggest problem of re-establishing a reliable gun register would be twofold, one getting all licenced gun owners to give honest and accurate records of what they have, two making sure that the register is kept up to date.
So in this day and age a central gun register office, tasked with amassing the information required on computer for instant delivery of relevant information to front line Police going to possible firearms incidents would cost money, a lot probably.
The alternative? we lose damn fine men who go to a job and get shot dead for LACK OF THAT INFORMATION.
The only other alternative is state intervention and the removal of all firearms from all legal owners.
This would achieve what?
Same as in England, take all guns off all law abiding owners and then hey presto we're gun free, no more gun crimes.
Wait a minute, whats this in the news, "ARMED MEN HOLD UP PUB" all over England.
Hang on, there's no guns left in the hands of ordinary law abiding people, oh yeah, must be the crims! oh well what can you do about them?
Hunt the barstards down using every means possible including and most importantly in my humble opinion, asking the once again law abiding gun owners to keep their eyes and ears open.
Do you have an alternative that would work, I'd be interested to hear it.

Fully agree with the last, mental health or lack of it is an increasing problem here to.
Why, simple, our govt's have completely wiped out those places where those that truly needed to be looked after could be.
They have introduced possibly homicidal people back into communities who want to care for these people and make their lives better, but they have no idea of what it takes to look after these people and the first they know of a problem is when someone is dead because one of these poor people has flipped out and could not be restrained or made to see that there were other ways of dealing with tier demons.
ADHD, prescription tranquilizers and allergies all fall under the same umbrella for me, soft cocks who give something a name so it can be treated?
Lets get serious, a kid yells and screams at their parents, they do nothing, it goes to school and does the same there, the teachers run away with hands in the air, can't give it a bloody good old fashioned clip under the ear, it'll sue them and the govt will fire them.
Doctors treat a symptom of possible fatigue/mental break down with a tranquiliser, great until they are being swallowed a rate well past safe, and Oh yes, off the rails they go.
Spend the time, find out why, treat that!
Allergies, how many of us suffer from them these days? Lots, why? How come? as my kids used to say to their grandmother.
Um, because they don't know what it is that is causing the problem, so it's an allergy, take these all encompassing drugs, the allergy symptoms will go away, don't worry about the side effects, hair falling out, tension headaches, suicidal tendancies.
Time is the biggest killer of people all over the civilised ( Yeah Right) world.
Take those kids with ADHD out into the country let em run till they drop, put em to bed, same tomorrow and the next day, show them some respect, discipline them as and when required, never let them see fear or capitulate, they come around, they learn to modify their own behaviour to make life including theirs better/easier.

[Daffyd]

Well said that man! ADHD is only one of many manufactured conditions; invented by Big Pharma so they could make and sell Ritalin etc.

RITALIN... So much easier than parenting!

[scumdog]

Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones. aying something and to keep hammering away at the crims and the gun runners who think they can get away with it.
The biggest problem of re-establishing a reliable gun register would be twofold, one getting all licenced gun owners to give honest and accurate records of what they have, two making sure that the register is kept up to date.
So in this day and age a central gun register office, tasked with amassing the information required on computer for instant delivery of relevant information to front line Police going to possible firearms incidents would cost money, a lot probably.
The alternative? we lose damn fine men who go to a job and get shot dead for LACK OF THAT INFORMATION.

The registry falls out of accuracy too easily/quickly as far as I know - and depending on it could be fatal anyway. i.e."It's OK, Joe Snerd only has a single action shotgun, we should be rigth" (Meanwhile Joe Snerd has accumulated an arsenal of multi shot weapons...)

Well that's virtually what what happened with Molenaar, he didn't hold a firearms licence remember - and look at his armoury and the outcome.
And that's what would have happened if we had to register guns back then too..

[SMOKEU]

None of these people can own or put to a weapon capable of SEMI AUTOMATIC fire, a magazine, with a capacity of more than 7 rounds.

Yes they can, legally.

[Edbear]

The registry falls out of accuracy too easily/quickly as far as I know - and depending on it could be fatal anyway. i.e."It's OK, Joe Snerd only has a single action shotgun, we should be rigth" (Meanwhile Joe Snerd has accumulated an arsenal of multi shot weapons...)

Well that's virtually what what happened with Molenaar, he didn't hold a firearms licence remember - and look at his armoury and the outcome.
And that's what would have happened if we had to register guns back then too..

One doesn't need to look any further than KB to see how many flout the law because 'laws only apply to those who choose to obey them." This kid was never going to obey the law and obviously there were signs he wasn't a mentally sound kid to start with.

But how does one determine whether he was likely to kill his mother and go shoot up a school?

Yes, America is a gun-happy nation and gun deaths are a lot higher there than elsewhere indicating something in the nation's psyche about settling things with a gun. However, this type of incident falls outside that "norm" and is evidence of a deeper, more disturbing issue of mental health.

[Delerium]

In reply Swoop.

No full auto weapons in the hands of civilians in NZ, well actually! But that comment in context of what I was referring to USA's latest outrage, is properly sheeted home to that place not NZ.

The gun register!
Yep Canada have just thrown it out because it cost too much.
Question, what is too much?
Seriously, the gun register worked for Police, it did tell them who owned what guns, "legally" As usual though it didn't tell them who had the illegal ones. You find that out from good intelligence and respect of the general public and an unafraid shooting fraternity who will actively monitor their own and let authorities know if a gunny is heading off the rails.
Wrong! The cops didnt even think to check that jaan mollenar had no firearms after he no longer held a license. Then to make it an even bigger cock up, they sent unarmed officers to his residence when the knew he was unstable

The trick is to make sure that gun owners are not afraid of saying something and to keep hammering away at the crims and the gun runners who think they can get away with it.
The biggest problem of re-establishing a reliable gun register would be twofold, one getting all licenced gun owners to give honest and accurate records of what they have, two making sure that the register is kept up to date.
Wont happen. The government has proven to license holders that we cant trust them. See the complete balls up with PCP air guns, a knee jerk piece of legislation due to the death of mr Snee. Instead of restricting airguns with a set power limit, all PCPs were declared firearms. So now a PCP of 6 ft/lbs energy used for olympic competition is a firearm ( and incapable of killing anybody), where as a spring cocker of 25 ft/lbs is still an air gun
So in this day and age a central gun register office, tasked with amassing the information required on computer for instant delivery of relevant information to front line Police going to possible firearms incidents would cost money, a lot probably.
The alternative? we lose damn fine men who go to a job and get shot dead for LACK OF THAT INFORMATION.
Already proven that the police dont use the current information they have access to and that the lack of enforcement of current legislation is the issue, not a lack of firearms legislation. See Canada for the the screw up that is the registry (inaccurate, over budget, and compromised on several occasions by criminal elements. Apart from that, what use does it give. Criminals WILL NOT REGISTER THEIR FIREARMS TO BE USED IN CRIME
The only other alternative is state intervention and the removal of all firearms from all legal owners.
This would achieve what?
Same as in England, take all guns off all law abiding owners and then hey presto we're gun free, no more gun crimes.
Wait a minute, whats this in the news, "ARMED MEN HOLD UP PUB" all over England.
Hang on, there's no guns left in the hands of ordinary law abiding people, oh yeah, must be the crims! oh well what can you do about them?
Hunt the barstards down using every means possible including and most importantly in my humble opinion, asking the once again law abiding gun owners to keep their eyes and ears open.
Do you have an alternative that would work, I'd be interested to hear it.
Enforce the current legislation effectively and stop with 'police interpretations'. The police already got their ass handed to them well and truely regarding the thumbhole stock debacle. If they pulled that shit in any other areas of society the screams would be loud and clear, and they would have had an evel bigger slapping.

Fully agree with the last, mental health or lack of it is an increasing problem here to.
Why, simple, our govt's have completely wiped out those places where those that truly needed to be looked after could be.
They have introduced possibly homicidal people back into communities who want to care for these people and make their lives better, but they have no idea of what it takes to look after these people and the first they know of a problem is when someone is dead because one of these poor people has flipped out and could not be restrained or made to see that there were other ways of dealing with tier demons.
ADHD, prescription tranquilizers and allergies all fall under the same umbrella for me, soft cocks who give something a name so it can be treated?
Lets get serious, a kid yells and screams at their parents, they do nothing, it goes to school and does the same there, the teachers run away with hands in the air, can't give it a bloody good old fashioned clip under the ear, it'll sue them and the govt will fire them.
Doctors treat a symptom of possible fatigue/mental break down with a tranquiliser, great until they are being swallowed a rate well past safe, and Oh yes, off the rails they go.
Agree, the US has a very different societal attitude and culture to us
Spend the time, find out why, treat that!
Allergies, how many of us suffer from them these days? Lots, why? How come? as my kids used to say to their grandmother.
Um, because they don't know what it is that is causing the problem, so it's an allergy, take these all encompassing drugs, the allergy symptoms will go away, don't worry about the side effects, hair falling out, tension headaches, suicidal tendancies.
Time is the biggest killer of people all over the civilised ( Yeah Right) world.
Take those kids with ADHD out into the country let em run till they drop, put em to bed, same tomorrow and the next day, show them some respect, discipline them as and when required, never let them see fear or capitulate, they come around, they learn to modify their own behaviour to make life including theirs better/easier.

My responses to your points in red'

[scumdog]

My responses to your points in red'

Don't blame ALL of us for the thumbhole stock eff-up - it was Joe Green who decided that.

And re Molenaar, maybe the cops didn't check that he no longer had firearms after his licence was cancelled - but how often do you expect them to check people like that? 3, 4, 5 times?

Cos he sure as hell didn't have ALL those weapons the day his licence was cancelled.

"Excuse me sir, we see your firearms licence was cancelled in 2003 but we thought we'd pop in for one more look just in case you've bought a gun or two since our last visit" Tuis moment...

[caseye]

Yes they can, legally.

Smoke, you'd know this how?

You are wrong!

An A cat licence allows you to own and operate a centre fire rifle with a fixed magazine capacity of no more than 7 rounds. if you own a semi auto rifle capable of taking a box magazine then you must only own a 7 shot magazine.
If you want to use your semi auto rifle with more than a 7 round capacity magazine then you must apply for, pay much more money for and then be accepted as an E cat owner, then and only then are you legally allowed to own and operate a semi auto rifle that can hold in any way more than 7 rounds.

People instead of picking the eyes out of what we all post what about coming up with ways that we might otherwise be able to fight this sort of Political clap trap that does no more than stir public outrage and create a way for govt's to make bans stick when banning anything has been proven to not work at all anyhow.

Scummy, I know there are flaws with a register, that it would be hard to get everyone on board but isn't the lives of our guys and girls worth the effort?
Delerium, the Police go to places like that everyday, the risk is never any different except for when the perps are going nuts, they knew he'd had his guns removed, they didn't know he'd built up an unhealthy arsenal, no one told them. Perhaps if they'd had ears in the right places they'd have heard something.

I didn't say it'd be easy, got any ideas worth getting flamed on here for?

Hole in one, cripes tell us something we don't know. Everyone who gives a damn knows that crims don't register guns. Hell they'd have to give them up.
Again, got any ideas that might float?

Current legislation, hummm, you mean as has been pointed out this week by another sniveling judge ( Yeah Right) that the Police have no right to follow anyone onto private property if they have not been noticed, great work that judge ( fuckwit) Same category as the one who recently decided that inventing a cover for an at risk police officer isn't acceptable because it offended his sensibilities as a judge, he wasn't told of it because it had happened under the jurisdiction of another judge.
Nett result 31 criminals walk, at least one Police officers life is most definitely at risk, their career gone and we're left with a bill for cleaning up the P labs and the kids who smoke this shit.
If you don't like the way our guys do their job, just say so, don't beat about the bloody bush.