MOTO-NZ finally come up with something for all our money

[bogan]

Turbine spooling up? I'm in, one of my favourite sounds. Great project you've done there too.

Yeh, reckon its one of those cases where its good by itself, but overshadowed by expectations when compared to the original, like Top Gear US. Dunno about great, if it were that I wouldn't have removed the batteries and put her in storage, but its a good start anyway...

[Zedder]

Yeh, reckon its one of those cases where its good by itself, but overshadowed by expectations when compared to the original, like Top Gear US. Dunno about great, if it were that I wouldn't have removed the batteries and put her in storage, but its a good start anyway...

Yep, it's a start. What was the original objective?

[bogan]

Yep, it's a start. What was the original objective?

Uni commuter, which it did, but I stopped going to uni, and would still quite like to throw it around with the buckets, hence the battery upgrade plan. I'm less about objectives and more about mucking around with interesting tech when it comes to hobbies anyway.

[swbarnett]

but there has to come a point where we have to cede some of our freedom for the greater good

While I agree in principle there will be great debate about whether the freedom is indeed being ceded for the greater good. Afterall, for a society to flourish each individual needs to feel valued by that society (or at least that's the ideal). As per the rallying cry of the three muskateers - "All for One and One for All".

Unfortunately choosing when to cede is not our decision any more and is done by the consensus of 121 people on our behalf...

We can influence that decision (or at least not give up without a fight).

and where the mighty $ is concerned, it ain't our good that's at the core of the decision making.

Is it ever?

I don't doubt it and if there had have been a sacrcasm icon available, it would have been used .

Yep, we definitely need one of those.

[GrayWolf]

Where DO you get such unmitigated drivel, I can't believe one guy can simply make that much up all on his lonesome.

Those nasty cars you reckon should be abandoned in favour of public transport actually cost less fuel per pasenger mile than busses. Trains are much worse.

As for petrol being thieved because it's worth so much, it was far more of a problem in the '70s, when fuel costs were comparitively higher than they are now.

For shitsake ask someone who actually knows something, anything at all, before you mouth off about the evils of whatever this week's fantasy might be.

Sorry Ocean,
but the 2009 US figures do not agree with your statement
US Passenger transportation

The US Transportation Energy Data Book states the following figures for passenger transportation in 2009:[53]
Transport mode Average passengers per vehicle BTU per passenger-mile MJ per passenger-kilometre
Rail (Intercity Amtrak) 20.9 2,435 1.596
Motorcycles 1.16 2,460 1.61
Rail (Transit Light & Heavy) 24.5 2,516 1.649
Rail (Commuter) 32.7 2,812 1.843
Air 99.3 2,826 1.853
Cars 1.55 3,538 2.319
Personal Trucks 1.84 3,663 2.401
Buses (Transit) 9.2 4,242 2.781
Taxi 1.55 15,645 10.257

[4] Automobiles: The Bureau of Transportation Statistics has done the heavy lifting for us, calculating BTU per passenger-mile for cars, light trucks, and motorcycles. For cars, the latest (2008) data point is 3501 BTU / passenger-mile, or 0.028 gallons per passenger-mile, which equals 35.7 pmpg (BTS assumes 1.58 passengers on average, so this equates to 22.6 mpg). Using the same BTS data, average pmpg for light trucks is 31.4, and for motorcycles is 71.76. For max pmpg, we use a max passengers of 5 for cars and trucks, and 2 for motorcycles. To do this calculation from the BTS data, we first divide the avg. pmpg by the avg. passenger count, and then multiply by the max in each case.

[7] Trains: While all trains have similar underlying efficiencies, passenger trains in the US are much less efficient in practice because of poor utilization. BTS calculates Amtrak efficiency at 1745 BTU per passenger-mile, which equates to 71.6 pmpg. Amtrak traveled 267 million car-miles in 2007, which equals to 16 billion potential passenger miles if the average car holds 60 passengers. In 2007 Amtrak consumed 10.5 trillion BTU of fuel, or 659 BTU per available passenger mile. Amtrak’s max pmpg is therefore 189.7 (if somebody would just ride it).

[swbarnett]

Have you had a go on one? The motors generally have a whine that is akin (albeit a lot quieter) to a turbine spooling up, I think people will easily get used to that and enjoy it once the more practical issues are sorted.

Reminds me of Jay Leno on his MTT Y2K turbine superbike.

This is pretty amazing: Mission R. A true electric superbike. Still has a 2hr recharge time though and a realistic range of only about 160k

[Conquiztador]

Reminds me of Jay Leno on his MTT Y2K turbine superbike.

This is pretty amazing: Mission R. A true electric superbike. Still has a 2hr recharge time though and a realistic range of only about 160k

Now the plan of closing all the schools outside city limits make perfect sense!

[Ocean1]

Sorry Ocean,
but the 2009 US figures do not agree with your statement

Link to my data is broken, 2008 data here, though: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...ient-than-cars

Which shows buses, in particular cost considerably more.

Seems extremely unlikely that buses became far more patronised in one year, eh? Which probably indicates that you can't really trust data from teh internets at face value, especially data regarding public services, you never know who's grubby fingers have been all over it.

They might even have their equivalent of Nix Myth fiddling the books.

[GrayWolf]

Link to my data is broken, 2008 data here, though: http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...ient-than-cars

Which shows buses, in particular cost considerably more.

Seems extremely unlikely that buses became far more patronised in one year, eh? Which probably indicates that you can't really trust data from teh internets at face value, especially data regarding public services, you never know who's grubby fingers have been all over it.

They might even have their equivalent of Nix Myth fiddling the books.

Not concerned over the buses, you commented trains are worse... they arent. If patronised fully and consistently, they are THE most efficient people movers vs fuel consumption.... but I agree that IS the issue, they ARE under patronised.

[Ocean1]

they ARE under patronised.

That's 'cause they cost too much. Chicken/egg.

You could possibly defend Wgtn's train costs if they provided a service as good as driving your car and paying parking fees. But they don't.

[davereid]

That's 'cause they cost too much. Chicken/egg.

You could possibly defend Wgtn's train costs if they provided a service as good as driving your car and paying parking fees. But they don't.

Daves Wellington test.

Take a sunday drive for a Samoan family of six, youngest 2 years from Porirua to get a burger at Wendys in Paraparaumu, then to the zoo at Newtown, then back to Porirua via cousins in Belmont.

Compare cost between public transport and toyota previa.

Do again comparing time of travel v time at destinations.

Public transport works for tidal flow traffic. The rest of the time its a dog. So you have to own the toyota anyway.

[GrayWolf]

That's 'cause they cost too much. Chicken/egg.

You could possibly defend Wgtn's train costs if they provided a service as good as driving your car and paying parking fees. But they don't.

Well seeing as obviously trains can only terminate at stations, there is always going to be a difficulty for localised transport.. hence the buses. BTW the crap train service with the new trains has now reached above 90% 'on time' arrivals. IF you think that the cost of fares charged in Wgtn is high, I would suggest you google the costs for similar networks EG; London Underground, NY metro,, We are actually extremely reasonable in fare pricing.
During peak hours the train IS faster. The main restriction to 'performance' (speed) is the NZ narrow gauge track. You are never going to get 200kph trains running on it, well not in the immediate (30yrs) future.
BTW WRC are looking to increase service regularity this year for Trains and rumour more bus services.... Instead of the 10's of millions wasted on transmission gully, electrifying to Palmy and Masterton would be far more long term constructive.

[swbarnett]

Public transport can work. I used Wellington trains and busses when we got stranded there for a week while the car was getting fixed. I've also used Swiss public transport (trains, busses, trams and ferries) when we lived there for two years. In Wellington, I was wanted the car back. In Switzerland it was "what do we need a car for?".

For public transport to work it needs three things :- regularity, reliability and reasonable cost.

Regularity - The Zurich buses/trams run every 10 minutes in the CBD and surrounds and every 20 minutes in the suburbs. You can get a bus or train to every town or city (including the smallest hamlet on the high mountain passes) every day (including Sunday).

Reliability - Only twice in two years did I find a train running late (never with a bus, tram or ferry). Once it was waiting for a connecting German train. Once there was enough snow on the rails to close the line.

Reasonable cost - For about 1200 (2300 for first class) swiss franks (about 1:1 with NZD at the time) you could get a card that included about 95% of all public transport for the entire country. If your spouse already has one you can get one for half price. For most people using public transport was a no-brainer compared to the cost of running a car.

[Scuba_Steve]

Trains cost ALOT more than roads, while roads are almost completely "user pays" trains are heavily subsidised, a ticket is less than half the true cost of operation. If they were a "user pays" system almost no-one would ever use them due to the extreme cost. As it stands now the trains would actually lose LESS money if they didn't charge to use them, but tickets are used for crowd control.
Trains are very restrictive, you don't get to choose times, places, or routes.
Off peak they are a complete waste in every sense they burn money & emissions. As you can't just shutdown off peak travel like you can with private this makes them overall less economical by a large percentage.
Electrifying the track is a HUGE waste of money. Electric tracks are a false economy, they actually cost no less & sometimes more than their Diesel-Electric counterparts to run but the track setup cost is way in excess of the diesel-electrics. The diesel-electrics also don't have the crippling failings like the electrics, they aren't stopped by power cuts or transformer problems, they are overall more reliable & thus the better option.

[Ocean1]

Well seeing as obviously trains can only terminate at stations, there is always going to be a difficulty for localised transport.. hence the buses. BTW the crap train service with the new trains has now reached above 90% 'on time' arrivals.

90% is nowhere near good enough, if I use the system every day it means I'm going to be late for work 30 times a year. Have you any idea what overall cost to the client that represents? The hit to the economy is huge.

IF you think that the cost of fares charged in Wgtn is high, I would suggest you google the costs for similar networks EG; London Underground, NY metro,, We are actually extremely reasonable in fare pricing.

I live here, I don't care what it costs there. When I did live there my income was 30% greater because I worked "in town", it was recognised as being an expensive option and every city industry paid extra. They paid enough, in fact that at the time I considered the 100% reliable transport costs negligable. I repeat, train fare in Wgtn isn't good value for money.

During peak hours the train IS faster. The main restriction to 'performance' (speed) is the NZ narrow gauge track. You are never going to get 200kph trains running on it, well not in the immediate (30yrs) future.

You don't need 200kph speeds to make the trains worthwhile, you just need to make them on time every day and better serviced in terms of downstream transport at Wgtn central. The cause of most of the loss of service isn’t the trains, it’s piss poor organisation.

Instead of the 10's of millions wasted on transmission gully, electrifying to Palmy and Masterton would be far more long term constructive.

With the tax and rates we pay I expect both.

I'll point out, though that it's well recognised that the limit to the size of the local commute is the size of the pipeline. Make the pipe larger and the number of people moving into and out of a city will grow until the pipeline efficiency drops to the old level. You can't fix it, you're better off getting all of the head offices moved out to satelite towns.