Why work? A couple from the UK asks

[mashman]

So that someone else doesn't have to do it for you.

Is that clear enough?

Oh FFS. Even though I work, I still have people doing all sorts of other shit for me. So again, why should I bother?

Are you getting the picture yet?

[Ocean1]

Oh FFS. Even though I work, I still have people doing all sorts of other shit for me. So again, why should I bother?

Are you getting the picture yet?

Perfectly.

You're one of 55% of the population that consume more public funds than they contribute.

Congratulations.

You could at least have the decency to feel guilty that someone else is propping up your lifestyle.

[mashman]

Perfectly.

You're one of 55% of the population that consume more public funds than they contribute.

Congratulations.

You could at least have the decency to feel guilty that someone else is propping up your lifestyle.

That's very true to an extent.

Meh.

I do, in some fashion, rather that than reveling in my glorious success , hence the no money thing. Best for all concerned, as well as for future generations.

[007XX]

Oh do you now . The situation is simple. There's more than enough of us to fill the positions available. Therefore there will be people who are unemployed. I will be funding anyone who isn't employed. It ends there for me as it is an absolute inevitability. That's simple... yet those simple facts are unacceptable for some because of a whole raft of a whole raft of reasons. Jealousy masked as indignation. As you said, get over it. I take it you object to charity?

I get it. As I said before I used to think exactly the same things as yourself. Good for nothings etc... look at me trying and them feckers doing nothing.

I could not have phrased that last paragraph any better... although my reasoning behind your words looks to be entirely different.

Ok... Firstly, that was nicely written.

Secondly, I don't think all people who are on the benefit are the same, good for nothings. There are indeed many who deserve it, even if for long periods of time. It should be addressed as a case by case situation, not a mass generalisation making a joke of those truly in need.
I am however bothered by those who do see it as a lifestyle option. Why? Because it takes away from those who really deserve it.

Just as yourself, I do not begrudge need, nor do I mind charity. I help in that way when I can, but not with money. Acts are more worthy than words always in my books.

And you are right, our life experiences don't sound that dissimalar, except I didn't see first hand the effects of war. However, it reminds me of a study done some years ago outlining the effects of traumatic events on the human psyche.
The case in study was on two men, similar age, life conditions, social statuses, etc having gone through a train derailing, killing tens of people. By all account a very traumatic event to all involved.

One of the man went on to break into a deep depression, have violent recurring nightmares and eventualy couldn't live with the guilt of having survived and killed himself.
The second man saw the event as tragic but rationalised it and although admitting it was horrible, went on to recuperate and live his life without further signs of mental trauma.

Now, I am not suggesting either of us are either scarred or mentally negative
What I am saying is that our views are similar but the differences are based on several layers of personality traits, belief structures spanning from education, and many more influences we cannot account for merely by talking about it on here.
And , we both have our own visceral way of taking in information and processing it into a life lesson.

So that is why as much as I do agree with you, it is only ever going to be to a certain point.

As far as my studies go, I'm not taking up a trade Anyone with a pitchfork can just kiss my shiny pen pusher's arse.

[mashman]

As was yours... and stop it, you'll make me blush. Tis easier to write when not working at the same time... yeah yeah, go on, let's have the smart arsed crack about multitasking men.

I agree with those seeing it as lifestyle option being potentially "ungreatful" for what they're receiving. However that doesn't stop the basic facts from being true i.e. there will be unemployment. So to that end there is no taking away from those who deserve it if you see what I mean. There will be X unemployed due to a lack of jobs, not because it has been chosen as a lifestyle by a relative few. The acceptance of that doesn't mean that you have to be happy about it, but it doesn't mean that those who have been assessed as fit for work should be financially penalised (potentially then turning to crime, potentially ending up in jail and costing more to house) for not wanting to. As perverse as that sounds, look at it from an employers perspective. Would you rather have the guy who has been assessed and deemed unlucky enough to be forced into the workplace as an employee or the person who is looking for a job, keen to learn etc...? Who knows, taking the boot of of the bad boys throat i.e. calling off the govt dogs and their threats and putting the money wasted on trying to crucify them towards assistance may well yield a different result?

I do begrudge charity, but not in the way we're discussing it. I find it a slap in the face that we're not providing consistent full funding and support to those who need it. After all, it's about helping out right? I understand the reasons why we don't and that's just another tick on my list in regards to ditching the financial system, so thay they can receive what they need and not as much as the budget can afford. To that end, I deplore the concept of charity. Similarly school donations.

The war thing affected me to a degree, but I don't tend to live in the past. Great for stories and putting things into perspective, but in the same token I have a hard time accepting that my past defines my present, moreover I feel that my future affects my present in eminnently more so than my past. I have changed my mind about things in what many see as a radical way, where it's merely me looking at the future and seeing where we're heading given our current circumstances. I believe that if we change those circumstances, then we change our future. I've had this dicsussion with people before and they often tell me that I can't make decisions without basing things on past experience, yet I have done so many things that are out of character over the last few years, I fail to see how that can solely be the case. Pissing in the wind perhaps, but as far as I'm concerned my past has given me some knowledge and that's about it, where my decisions are made in the here and now and are very much focussed on the future. For some unknown reason that seems to be a concept that many choose to accept. Given that

My late step-dad was a train driver and had 3 "jumpers". Really fucked him up in ways, but he eventually got up and got on with it again... although he never slept properly again.

Hmmmmmm. I'm going to respectfully disagree, to a degree, in regards to personality traits, education etc... being the reason we for our "differences". I may try to convince you that my NOW thing is the way to go and you could push back, ahem... whereas someone you know and trust could explain it to you and you'd quite possibly accept it. For me that's where the personality traits come in to play. In regards to education, you must unlearn what you have learned and learn to accept that which is right. Obviously wanky, but essentially true. People can change their minds if the decide to, irrespective of education or personality and similarly those many other influences you allude to.

Of course a lot of that, probably all of it, flies in the face of what the experts say and no doubt that would make me a mental case. I have no truck with that as it is merely my observations of how I've changed and what has changed me. And as you say, we'll only ever go to the point we want to go to before we don't want to hear any more

Not a trade eh... and a damned fine reason to buy a pitchfork by the sounds of things ... perhaps a head Dr ?

Holy shit... sorry about the essay of dribble

[Big Dave]

Should be competing for air.

40 cigs a day - won't be long.

[007XX]

That's very true to an extent.

Meh.

I do, in some fashion, rather that than reveling in my glorious success , hence the no money thing. Best for all concerned, as well as for future generations.

Sorry, just quoting this earlier post cos editing that last one from an iPad is a biatch

Anyways... Your "now" thing as you call it is not all that uncommon or silly. Most people may not understand it but it doesn't actually make it stupid by any means.

There often comes a time into someone's life ( often a someone with a strong individualistic personality), where the YOU that has been built to comply with society ends up rebelling and starts seeing things under its own individual light. Not rebelling in a " I'm getting me a Ferrari and ditching my whole life" kind of way, but more a re evaluation of what mentality and thought processes one was forced to adopt due to their past circumstances. And I won't push that one, as you already respectfully disagreed

And I can appreciate your viewpoint without having to automaticaly agree with it. Being empathic with your ideas and seeing their foundation of truth doesn't shake my beliefs, and I can take them into consideration without feeling threatened

It makes for very enjoyable debates.

Your visualisation of the "things to be" based on the now is a very interesting perspective. I'm not very knowledgeable about economics, politics, etc
I do try though to educate myself a bit more, but I certainly wouldn't try to take anyone in the know on about it.

As far as my studies go, no I am not going to be a head dr Lol
I thought about it mind you, but ultimately, the responsibility of playing with someone's mind would bear too heavily on my conscience. Plus, having left school at 16 with no qualifications, I would have to have so many years of hard slugging, it would take me away for far too long from my children and they are ultimately a huge reason for me to be doing this.
So I have settled on a bachelor of Communication Management. Grand words to say so little. But I have always enjoyed the written word, was even prophesized to be one day a writter (albeit in french then) by one of my college teachers.

[mashman]

heh... I didn't bother quoting you're one before and I'm using a laptop... you are forgiven.

Ach I know NOW (or some variation of) is the way we need to be heading and after speaking with friends, family, "strangers" etc... I've met plenty of people who understand the concept at a high level and would happily do their bit to be a part of that society. Was mailing with Son the other night and he started talking about cultural lag, a phrase I'd never heard of before, but it kinda sums up why we're not doing what we should be. In that we probably know we can get their easily enough, but someone always has to go first to prove the concept. Many a response on KB has taught me that. However I do still have the occassional doubt as there are potential negatives... I guess we may never find out.

Why couldn't I have ditched the wife and kids and gone the Ferrari route? heh. I did disagree, but to a degree ... I think the past is great for reflection and if only, but it's not a driver for my re-evaluation process. In regards to the two folk on the dole, I think they're light years ahead of where I was at that age in regards to how things work. I don't think it's all hand-out hand-out hand-out without any form of forethought in regards to their future. That re-evalutation thing gives me hope for the future as I seem to see it more and more in "kids" these days. Their learning curve drastically shortened by learning from our lessons. The past, well knowledge that they didn't earn first hand shall I say .

I fully understand that people don't have to agree and that it doesn't automatically make us mortal enemies, but when it comes to the big things, I think that's exactly what the majority are going to have to do to "enforce" the change. We can only change ourselves, failing that we're coercing others to conform to a set belief which is something I think most of us really don't want... unless of course people are just taking and not giving back . You seem ugly enough to be you're own person, fancy running a free country? You can mass debate all you like then.

I only have high level overviews of economics/politics etc... with smatterings of detail and my knowledge only grows because of those around me and as little reading as possible. To that end I've got a lot of people on KB to thank for that, like the Oscars, Oceans, Bogans, Winstons etc... who give me the other view to consider... whether they know it or not, they've taught me a lot. In regards to the now, I don't see things getting better. If they're not getting better then there's an issue somewhere, a single point of failure usually. For me it's obvious what it is coz I've spent about 5 years thinking about it and the systems that surround it. I'm still learning and I'm prepared to be wrong in order to find out what's most likely right and will happily throw down with the "experts"... who I believe are incorrect in their approach to structuring our society funnily enough .

Well I be jealous of thy talent. No doubt you'll breeze the degree. I'd love to be able to be as concise with my posts/writings. Mum says it's because I'm not a reader, personally I think I just don't have that talent... too busy reading and writing If Then Else While ForEach all day to want to read other words... especially the lies .

[mashman]

It still doesn't address the fundamental issue... and as the only way of "ending the 'something for nothing' culture and making work pay" is to use a hammer, it'll catch "Millions of England's poorest households - both in and out of work - [who] are already very close to the edge given falling wages, tax credits and benefits."

"We are cutting council tax in real terms for hard-working families and pensioners, and we are on the side of people who work hard and want to get on.". Get on to what? In think that's the biggest question there is. Where employers are pay freezing and laying off staff etc... what is this "getting on" that our govts whitter on about? These policies aren't people centric... NOW FTW

[007XX]

This little conversation of ours is no doubt going to end up in pink hell soon ( apologies mods), but I am selfishly quite enjoying it.

As far as politics go, I have always had a total abhorrence of it. I mass debate plenty as it is, what with being a healthy female and all , and I must admit as I am growing older, I do find myself intrigued and hopeful that something can be done to help this country I love so much.

But I have two major problems:

a) I don't see how a "free country" can be a plausible end result. Why? Too many variables to be taken into account, mostly human flaws such as greed and unavoidable factor in how people operate. Too big a project to control all to perfection and have everything reliable and running right.

b) how would one stay in power long enough to make actual lasting changes? From an outsider's poing of view ( read here: immigrant), I have seen NZ inevitably go from Labour to National... Then back again the other way so many times. And each times, people were inevitably dissatisfied with the efforts of whomever was in charge. One set of policies starts something, with mitigated results, then the next lot of leaders comes along and changes everything.

There doesn't seem to be any continuity, and I so very often hear people saying " oh what happened to this such and such initiative/rule/ new law, that was good!"
But it disappeared because someone from the other party got rid of it cos it didn't fit their master plan.

I learn a lot on here too. Ocean, Winston, Swoop, Hitcher... These are often my mentors whether they know it or not.
And breezing through, I doubt I will. I'm scared shitless to be perfectly honest but I'm tired of making do with old routines. I need to challenge myself.

[Paul in NZ]

I'm scared shitless to be perfectly honest but I'm tired of making do with old routines. I need to challenge myself.

Buy an old Moto Guzzi - you can be challenged and scared shitless at the same time....

[Banditbandit]

Try $2.5 billion of settlements and climbing, approx 40 claims to be finalised totalling a further $435 million ish.

Surce for those figures? Not disagreing - just askign for the source ...

Back in the day, 13 Maori chiefs pestered the British Government to form a treaty to protect their trading rights etc. Maori instigated the whole thing.

Maybe ... the trading rights were protected by the Declaration of Independence ... and the concept of trhe treaty was to control unruly white people ... not to give control of our country to Britain ... Hobson had been ordered NOT to sign a treaty - he disobeyed his orders by preparing and signing the treaty ...

[007XX]

Buy an old Moto Guzzi - you can be challenged and scared shitless at the same time....

Haha... Eeerrr thanks but no thanks. I like reliability and pleasing aesthetics in my machine, two qualities Guzzis are sorely lacking of IMHO.

[Banditbandit]

Haha... Eeerrr thanks but no thanks. I like reliability and pleasing aesthetics in my machine, two qualities Guzzis are sorely lacking of IMHO.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... I think there are some very aesthetic Moto Guzzis out there ...

Reliability? Well - you have to sacrfice something to get a hand-built Eyetalian motorcycle ...

[mashman]

mass debating through pink hell and back

heh... it's kinda staying on topic, it may last til the weekend... the loooooooooong weekend (have monday and tuesday off, last little lady of the house starting school Monday and the other two ladies returning to school, thought I'd take advantage of the P&Q and get some exercise in the garden, amongst other places). It's novel for something to have not turned into a shit fight for a change eh.

I know what you mean about politics and for 37 years my mantra was, they're going to do what they want, I shall ignore it, I shall be a good boy, will work, pay tax and will die someday. So much for that plan, albeit the last part being a surprise that I won't remember. Since coming to NZ, I've stayed sober enough for long enough to have paid attention . De youf is where it's at. Older and wiser eh... always nice to leave the place a little tidier than when one arrived, heh. And I agree with you entirely. I watched the UK start to die and dragged my family half way around the world so they didn't have to grow up in that shit... DOH!

Only two major problems ... amateur.

a) is relatively simple in my eyes. What do you want? Then figure out how to get there. For me, with my evergreen view of an individual, the greedy are a minority and in the main the people in the country are cooperating. As mentioned in an earlier post, changing peoples' circumstances will affect their attitude. We can do that by changing the environment in which we live. If everything, and I mean everything is free, where's the need to be a cunt? A large dollop of "hey we're not trying to rip you off, but in return this is what you get" style education could go a very long way. Although if the population aren't offered the alternative, they can't vote for the change. Are you sure I can't interest you in running your country? Limited need for control as we'd could probably rely on personal responsibility (having voted for a system whereby you know that your effort is required to maintain it, why not let people have their freedom back?). I don't believe in perfection, not searching for nirvana/utopia, just some cooperation in regards to the big shit and the right to receive a kickin should I covet my neighbours ass, amongst other reasons. Do things properly, or as best as you can make them first time around (because it needs to be done and and not to a budget, free remember) and you may find that you get the reliability, functionality and durability (durability is important for me) that you highlight? Iffen ye can be arsed, pop to the Examples page on my site and have a quick read on how "easy" it is to make the country free.

b) Aye that one fucks me off no end too. 3 years, all change, 3 years, all change, perceived accomplishments cut to make way for new and improved failures, I mean perceived accomplishments. It seems to be the way the West do things, democracy I think it's called and yet very few wonder why it isn't working. I'd say that that is by design, but you'd all be reaching for our tin foil hats. The country is a part of a global economy. It must change how it functions in response to local and global changes and it has a limited budget with which to accomplish these things. When unhappy with the way things are going, we change the lead personnel. Similar to any organisation I guess, but unfortunately the "vision" changes too. Either way, all policy is led by economic policy in some way or another. It would be great to do X, but that would be at the expense of Y, so we'll settle for Z coz we need to be seen to be doing things. I have an empathy for politicians in ways, but if they aren't prepared to put their balls on the block and offer something that'll work, we'll end up with the usual red vs blue (just not as funny as the Halo version). To that end there should be no political party's, but more a "council of the wise" guiding the govt employees. That way you can sack the ineffective individuals, retaining the skills, knowledge and consistency without changing the goals. What happens if all of those people are corrupt? The country steps in. I think we're seeing similar things, albeit with different way of communicating it, with the Arab Spring. It started as we want jobs, we want to be able to provide for our family's etc... and the power structure was challenged. There have been structure changes, but the jobs haven't arrived (for many reasons) and so they're still protesting about something. Here, we vote. There, they put their lives on the line to get their point across (unfortunately it's blamed as being a religious shit fight, where it really isn't). In essence, the right person for the right job PM 007XX :wink:.

You need a challenge eh... ok, you've been added to the list of folk I'll contact (all 2 of you) should the day come that I get enough cash in my pocket that I can fund a small group of folk to have a crack at fleshing out NOW... before deciding whether or not to have a crack at getting it to the big table (maybe even leverage an existing political party or two if they're honestly open minded, pfffft)... should you arsed or convinced at the time that is. Ironically it will take money to get to that stage, doesn't everything these days.