For one thing, I sure as hell would sort the freakin registration and ACC nonsensical charges to bikersOriginally Posted by Edbear
Yeah, but you relate to real people...
But eh... That is all musing at this point eh?
Rest In Peace
For one thing, I sure as hell would sort the freakin registration and ACC nonsensical charges to bikersYeah, but you relate to real people...
But eh... That is all musing at this point eh?
Aio ki te Aorangi
That's what I was trying to get atYeah, but you relate to real people...
You wouldn't have to worry about that if there were no financial system in NZFor one thing, I sure as hell would sort the freakin registration and ACC nonsensical charges to bikers
But eh... That is all musing at this point eh?
It always has been and hopefully always won't be the case.
I didn't think!!! I experimented!!!
Forum whore
OK Veronique... what about this then. It's from an email we got friday.
CAN AUSTRALIA SURVIVE GIVEN THE FOLLOWING?
The folks who are getting free stuff, don't like the folks who are paying
for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the
free stuff can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own
stuff.
The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop, and
the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff
on top of the free stuff they are already getting!
Now... The people who are forcing the people to pay for the free stuff have
told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff,
that the people who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being mean,
prejudiced, and racist.
So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they
need to hate the people who are paying
for the free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay for
their free stuff, and giving them the free stuff in the first place.
We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more
people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.
Now understand this: all great democracies have committed financial suicide
somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded.
The reason? The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the
treasury by electing people who promised to give them money
from the treasury in exchange for electing them.
Thomas Jefferson said it best: "Democracy will cease to exist when you take
away from those who are willing to work
and give to those who would not".
The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for
the free stuff. We have one chance
to change that at the next election in 2013 will we?
Failure to change that spells the end of Australia , as we know it.
ELECTION 2013 IS COMING
A Nation of Sheep Breeds a Government of Wolves!
I'M 100% for PASSING THIS ON!!!Let's take a stand!!!
Gillard:Gone!
Borders: Closed!
Language: Here more than 5 years, younger than 65, then English only!
Culture:The Australian Constitution!
Drug Free:Mandatory Drug Screening before Welfare!
NO freebies to:Bludgers and Non-Citizens!
We the people are coming.
Only 86% will send this on; it should be 100%. What will you do?
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's
money." -- Margaret Thatcher
Rest In Peace
I don't see how you can make a country with no financial system compatible and competitve with World Trade. I still need to learn and comprehend a lot about economics, but seeing NZ as purely a market unto its own borders doesn't seem logical to me (bear in mind this is an uneducated viewpoint, so be gentle please
You wouldn't have to worry about that if there were no financial system in NZ
.)
We need to import and export to survive as a country.Thats a simple fact. So how does that work then if there is no trade within our own borders?
Ok, this is all good and inspirational in theory but...
I got a bit of an interesting insight into this particular discussion. The source may make you smile, but stay withit if you will:
My girl and I were watching the kids' movie "Bee movie", in which a bee is tired of seeing his beefolks exploited making honey for the oppressing humans.
Long story short (if you haven't seen it), he convinces his fellow bees to stop making honey so they can get their right to rest and do as they please. No one likes to be a slave, and fair enough, right?
Bees win, they get to keep the honey and to stop making it.
Then unfortunately, the inevitable consequences of such a drastic change catches up with them: unpolinated plants die, so no more flowers, fruits or veges.
What I got from this: beware what you wish for. Theories are all well and good, but the effects may not be something that can be expected in advance, and often be more complex and damaging than staying with the old system.
So, as much as changes need to be made, revolutions are not always what they a cracked up to be.
What I have often thought is that too often, rules are made as a very generic "cover all" measure which doesn't resolve much but pacifies a few. We no longer look at things in detail because it is such a big enterprise.
In my mind, it needs to be voted in that the penalty equals the crime. Example:
- do not allow for reccurrent serious crime offenders (twice and you're out, lifetime in prison, and don't get me started about the cost of prisons) and prison mates WILL work to get anything in there. Because you're not living amongst society, it doesn't mean that you can live off it scot free.
- you own a dog? Then the yearly fee is minimal to cover administrative costs of keeping records of the dog. However, if said dog is found roaming around and causing damages, you have to foot all associated costs, and you get a hefty fine. (PS: I own two dogs and I'd be more than happy to have those terms instead of that BS dog registration scheme they have now).
- push bikes to be registered. It doesn't have to be a lot, but if you use the road, then you have to not only abide by the road rules, but also contribute to the costs of maintaning said roads.
- you ride a motorbike, jandals and shorts are no longer permissible. If you can afford a bike, you can afford some protective gear. If you look after it well, it lasts years.
Aio ki te Aorangi
I don't see how you can make a country with no financial system compatible and competitve with World Trade. I still need to learn and comprehend a lot about economics, but seeing NZ as purely a market unto its own borders doesn't seem logical to me (bear in mind this is an uneducated viewpoint, so be gentle please
We need to import and export to survive as a country.Thats a simple fact. So how does that work then if there is no trade within our own borders?... ironically we'd be changing from a physical economy to a perceptual economy in terms of financial economics... and I'll try my damndest to keep it short... erm... yeah. This is a very "simple" overview.
Let's say that the NOW party got into power and you became PM... you fought well, I hope you enjoy meeting Berlusconi... in fact someone should be there to video that meeting.
The internal economy has no financial system, but the rest of the world still requires that we produce a GDP.
When we import, we pay for our goods/services at the point of landing in the country. If a good/service costs $10 at that point and that the adhusted for inflation "shelf" price is $50, then we add $40 to the books of the country. After all, imported goods are there to be consumed and they will be, but they will be free to people in NZ. We're just paying the bills and people are using what they need. No doubt in some cases people will try to hoard, to what end I know not, but that's currently what happens and I don't see that changing any time soon. However your population has been educated to understand how our society now works and is ok with an awful lot of shit that would have had KB foaming at the mouth.
In essence the imports have been paid for, it is up to us how we "charge" for their consumption. However we have added a perceived value to our economy i.e. We have paid $10 for the good/service, we have added the wages/fuel/taxes/middlemen bites etc... on to the cost of the good that we would have paid for if a financialy system had been in place and we have added the "shelf" price to our accounts i.e. $50 "shelf" price - $10 cost price = $40. That $40 has been perceived as having been earned.
Exports. We sell a good/service for $X and it goes overseas. That $X covers wages/materials/taxes/middlemen etc... to get the good/service to the docks. Given that we control that price and that the effort that goes into producing that good/service is free, we then control the price at which that good/service leaves the country. we can tweak that price in order to become more competitive without it affecting the the lives of anyone in the country i.e. no job losses.
As we have a free workforce. (we will also have had huge unemployment given that there's fuckloads of jobs in this country that really service no real purpose, laywers, bank staff, computer programmers etc...). In my case I write software for several businesses and that same software is being written by someone else for my clients competitors. Where's the point in me keeping my job if the other guy is better and we're going to end up with the same software? Perhaps we could share the job on a shift basis and we'll both take half a day off (each and every day, fuck yeah!)
Anyway, we have a free workforce. Highly trained due to our free education system and highly healthy due to our medical system (a medical system that baselines people i.e. take blood every 3 months, and monitors our health over our lifetime. Should the blood readings highlight something out of the ordinary, such as menopause, it will be caught and we will have a better idea of what your body needs to replace what it isn't getting any more... being 1 idea). So we're as smart as fuck and as healthy as we can be. We work for free (albeit internally we pay the going rate to generate revenue, but again, that's all perceived money being earned and all going into Banko NZ). We now control how much our personel are charged out at in any given field. Should call centre staff in India earn $20 per day, we can charge our staff out at $15. we are highly competitive in the marketplace.
All of that perceived money is actually physical at Banko NZ. after all we need to pay for imported goods/services and we need to be paid for our exported goods/services.
The books are balanced in the eyes of the world, where's the issue?
Hopefully that's not too abstract and shows how we can compete with just about any country we choose to compete with.
(Tourism: NZ will be akin to an all inclusive resort... as it doesn't really matter who consumes the resource as it has already been paid for).
Rest In Peace
Let's say that the NOW party got into power and you became PM
).
Berlusconi... A colourful man, it would be indeed interesting to meet him.
I am currently reading about NOW. I can't deny it is an appealing concept, and you certainly make a very compelling argument.
However, a couple of very important points are bothering me:
1/ assuming that people will have either enough intelligence and / or self control to do what's right. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I think you dismiss too quickly what is fundamentally human nature. Greed, whether you like it or not, is probably *the* most powerful motivator in this world. Yes, you remove the need for money as a physical being, but does it mean it will stop people from wanting bigger, better, shinier? How will you balance out people's needs versus what you are importing and keep them all satisfied in the process?
2/ how will you make sure you have enough candidates for jobs most needed? What makes young people want to be doctors, judges, policemen, etc
Let's not be silly, greed it is. The attraction of of the pay packet.
Remove that, you remove the carrot that has been motivating people for thousands of years.
That is why there has been an increase of academics and a decrease in trades applicants. Do you really think that removing money will get academics suddemly wanting to try their hand at manual labour instead? Maybe, but that is a big maybe, don't you think?
3/I hate to say it, but there is no such thing as common sense. NOW requires for people to understand what they are getting, why they should do the right thing and give back as much as is required (how will they know how much that is?), and stay happy with their lot without ever wanting more because what they need is given to them free of charge. Human nature is selfish... Seeing the bigger picture is NOT often something people can do, because they can't see it. What they can see is their own little nexus and how to satisfy their personal needs.
How will you keep needs versus wants in balance?
Don't get me wrong, I do like your vision. It is beautiful. It is idealistic, and it really makes me want to believe it can work.
If I had more faith in humanity, I'd say you're right on the money (even without an economy)
But you would be asking a lot of very powerful and wealthy people to forego what they have, what they have built up over the years. Who would finance you then?
Aio ki te Aorangi
I need to start to finish NOW at some point... but it's counter-productive to do it by myself and I'd rather do it with a view to actually finishing it ready for public consumption. Til then it'll be a string of abstract concepts.
So you say that NOW seems fine, but people are the problem?
For me human nature is straight forwards (and I hate the term human nature, because none of us 7 billion people react the same to any given situation), but hey, let's continue using your terms... human nature is circumstantial. Put any given individual in a certain situation and they're supposed to react in one of several different ways. The moderately amusing thing being that the way the person reacts is inconsistent, f'instance a man is drowning just off a rocky shore and you're pretty sure you'll lose your life if you go in after him. Some people will go in after him and some people will stand and watch. Yet if it's someone they know I reckon you'll find that most will go in after him.
In regards to NOW. If you take away the most obvious reason to be greedy, the marketing and advertising for those suseptible to keeping up with the Jones's etc... what's the likelyhood that people will react differently? Essentially removing that which stimulates the undesired behaviour, because certain behaviours are purposefully stimulated and will cause a person to react in a prescribed way (although not always). No doubt there are extensive studies that cover this. I believe that it is referred to as social engineering.
NOW I don't believe that people are inherently greedy and selfish. If we were I reckon there'd be much more in the way of chaos in the world. There's more than enough, but there could be less. Wars are fought for money these days, be it technological advancement to be sold on at a later date (even weapons manufacturing), oil, land etc... Very few are religious wars (albeit there is always that threat, always has been in ways, but religion is usually the excuse). Wouldn't you think that if we were as greedy as everyone keeps saying that there'd be more chaos? To me it seems that the minority are greedy and we're labelled as a group under the human nature unmbrella. After all some peope devote their lives selflessly to help others. People take jobs with shit salaries to also help people (the aged frinstance).
Change the circumstances of every individual and all of a sudden you have changed the need for people to actively go out and fuck other people over because it's profitable to do so. Money is a major major factor in stimulating that behaviour. so what would happen if it didn't exist? Would kids who grow up wanting to be doctors, judges or policemen still grow up with that want? I'm guessing that they might.
Anyhoo, in regards to job allocation, heh... you've seen the Bee movie. It's how we do things today. Without certain jobs things fall apart very quickly. Remove the binmen or the cleaners or the sewerage workers for instance. How long will it be before we're overrun with rats and birds and disease etc... Yes we'll have doctors etc... but it's unlikely that we'll have enough. 1 way of looking at it could be, if you don't know what you want to do for a living (essentially me), then pick one of the jobs that needs to be done so that the doctors, judges, policemen can be educated etc... and will be there for you should you be in need of medical treatment, sentencing or in need of a speeding ticket. It's all you can ask really. With any luck we'll have taught (socially engineered iffen ye like) the kids that that isn't a shit position to have in life, but something that needs to be done for all of our benefits... and that when they finally work out what they'd like to do, they'll be more than welcome to go back to school to re-train without penalty etc... Who knows, there may well be more than enough people to cover the menial work and they'll be able to job share and cut down their working hours and replace it with more leisure time.
In regards to needs/wants... as we're still participating in the global economy and we're still going to want and need shit, we'll use the current mechanisms that are place for importing what we want/need. With any luck we'll get smarter in regards to our needs and wants i.e. I have pretty much everything I need or want and I dare say that there are plenty of people in NZ that would say the same. Sure that pang comes along for a Tuono V4 every now and then, and if one became available I'd put myself in the lottery to get itor at least I may put my order in for one and hope it gets accepted, but I don't really need it (maybe someone will swap with the V2 for a day or two). Either way, we can still import these things (perhaps we'll skin 2 or 3 years worth, or 16 generations of, iFarts).
I have that faith in humanity as I think there's a hell of a lot of people out there who are fed up with the issues we have today and I reckon once they understand the benefits and the reasons for NOW that they's vote for it. To that end should NOW become a reality and you become PM, then the wealthy and powerful will have to suck it up just as we've had to suck their system up for centuries. I have particular faith in the youth of today as they're nowhere near as useless and lazy as the fucktards make out.
As far as financing goes, perhaps Dick Smith or Warren Buffet or Bill Gates or some other entity that wants to see human beings have a real future might get wind of NOW and step in with money and resources to help dot the i's and cross the t's... I have no intention of doing it all by myself as it takes people from all walks of life and with all perspectives to make something like NOW a possibility. After that the people can vote on it with their usual level of giving a shitness. After all, we just want to get on with our lives eh
I don't see human beings as being a problem really as I don't see the majority as being useless and incapable of doing the right thing.
Tight buns
NOW sounds like a human ant colony to me, or just a shorter name for Marxism/communism....except the bit about only the 'best' software developer having a job
Who decides what is 'needful'? Who decides what roles/jobs people take? A DNA test at birth to map out your education and work life? If there is no aspiration, no fear of loss and ruin, where does the drive come from to innovate? What happens if the rest of the globe doesn't want to play?
Legalise anarchy
Rest In Peace
This is a step in the right direction.
It realisticaly levels up the field, and keeps things fair I think.
http://www.timebank.org.nz/about
Bogeyman
Same people that do now. Those with the money to pay for it.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Aio ki te Aorangi
We're already an ant colony... just coz there's money at the end of the rainbow doesn't make it any less so. Unfortunately the best coders are often found in the corner being abused by their employers coz they don't have a fuckin clue how to relate to them, let alone understand that they probably know more about the business than the business doesNOW sounds like a human ant colony to me, or just a shorter name for Marxism/communism....except the bit about only the 'best' software developer having a job
Who decides what is 'needful'? Who decides what roles/jobs people take? A DNA test at birth to map out your education and work life? If there is no aspiration, no fear of loss and ruin, where does the drive come from to innovate? What happens if the rest of the globe doesn't want to play?.
If a job needs doing, primarily because it doesn't do itself, then it's "needful". We chose as we currently do, but fingers crossed it means that the cream rises to the top and the bullshitters remain just that and are seen for the useless fuckers that they are... I mean the cream will rise to the top because they are the best people for the job. After all, what's the pint of producing the best people if they don't get their shot at producing the best? Money gets in the way. Stephen Hawking wouldn't have gotten far then... so no, I don't see DNA testing as being reliable. We've always innovated, I fail to see why that would stop. Lots of guys tinker in their sheds and produce marvellous bits n bobs because they enjoy doing it. If NOW worked in NZ, I fail to see why the rest of the world wouldn't adopt the model... especially given that the majority can be quite persuasive when they want to be and they have something that they'd like to try. At the end of the day we'd be moving towards exactly the same goals that the current economy is moving towards, only using the resources we have better and likely at a pace that'll make the last 100 years look like the monkeys had just fallen out of the tree. We'll still chuck shit up in space because people will want to explore space, maybe less spy shit and more functional shit too. We'll still want to get to the bottom of the ocean. We'll still want to produce power etc... We'll plough on without budget constraint. We'll likely have at least 2 or 3 people for every job, meaning that we can have more time for ourselves riding our flying motorcycles
Aio ki te Aorangi
Rainman posted an RSA talk on time-banking last year, maybe the year before. It was very interesting and instantly appealing. However someone needs to value the effort and what is more valuable, the binman who keeps the place tidy or the doctor who fixes people... given that if no one wants to be a binman because you don't get enough time, then you better hope you have enough doctors to tidy up the mess that that leaves behind. At the end of the day it's still a form of currency and open to abuse and open to creating social divide. We're not just trying to replace the financial system, we're trying to offer human beings the chance to become what they can as well as doing the shit that needs doing. More of a values shift instead of swapping one reward model for another where the end result is still the same. Work is work and if I self train I'll have earned 0 hours, yet someone who trains officially will be given hours for their training. I have issues with time-banking, granted not as many as with time-banking, but I fail to see the need for a half way house when we could just go the hole hog and do it right from the outset.
Aio ki te Aorangi
More likely they volunteer if it's needful, they use money when it serves a purpose needful or not.
Forum whore
Things would be a darned sight better if even the justice system invoked personal responsibility and enforced restorative justice.
Everyone expects the Govt. to provide everything and "fix stuff" while letting people do as they please without regard for others.
Get off yer lazy backsides and fix yourself! If you don't know what to do, learn it! One KB member I was talking with the other day said the most humiliating time he had was being forced to go to WINZ once and sat in on a workshop for employment. One no-hoper winged that "Yous fellers were supposed to be finding me a job.." The member had to bite his tongue...
You don't get to be an old dog without learning a few tricks.
Shorai Powersports batteries are very trick!
Aio ki te Aorangi
And then sends them straight back into the same environment? Nah, that's not enough. It's easy to say yup and nope when it cuts time off of a potential sentence and then go straight back to it. After all isn't that what a parole hearing is for? and yet people still re-offend? Not bagging the idea, but I have a hard time accepting that it would work as well as you may think. Hang on, that sounds vaguely familiar.
They hold all of the keys (pun intended). They run the oversight departments that are supposed to protect the public from the private sector. Who else are people supposed to turn to when the govt tell them to fuck off, it's not their problem? the ever stretched and diminishing services that provide that form of help?
Yes there are those who are waiting to be handed some form of lifeline. But measuring those people by "our" yardstick? From you? Gotta say I'm a tad disappointed... and given the "moron" in question is looking for some form of work and may well have been doing so for a long time, potentially having been given many knockbacks because he's being perceived as a "moron helps? fuckin triffic. It's hardly surprising that human beings go nowhere where that attitude lives on. Maybe the KB member in question coulda offered his services to help the guy? Nah, much easier to look down on him as a lazy fucker eh.Get off yer lazy backsides and fix yourself! If you don't know what to do, learn it! One KB member I was talking with the other day said the most humiliating time he had was being forced to go to WINZ once and sat in on a workshop for employment. One no-hoper winged that "Yous fellers were supposed to be finding me a job.." The member had to bite his tongue...
Whilst I understand why some people would look at someone else and say I'm surprised you can tie your shoes, it fucks me off that they're written off, it truly does. So much easier to ignore the issue than to do what's necessary because one feels that it's a waste of time. Sounds like the kind of logic that ends with services being cut coz there's just no helping some people, best just pull the plug. Human beings, just FUCKIN AWESOME
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