Competely noob towards all things bike

[TheTengTheory]

Even when getting off the hornet I typically go 1st second neutral. It's just easier. If i get neutral going up wahey great! But doesn't normally happen

By the way, you really should clutch your upshifts. There's no reason not too. It's generally not good for your clutch/gearbox ect (Honda put the clutch lever there for a reason!). It's just lazy, a bad practice to get into, and wholly unnecessary, clutchless upshifts. Unless you're at a track or trying to outrun the devil or something, you should really be using your clutch for every gear change.

I don't see how it's lazy? It was actually abit tricky to get it smooth but now I can climb through the gears smoothly without interuption. I still use the clutch depending on the situation, its not like I've forgotten about it. I just don't need to use it when climbing up the gears picking up speed. Feels brilliant when you click up and there's no chain lash just a change in the engine tone. I reckon it teaches you to match the engine speed with your throttle properly as oppose to clutch slipping the hamfisting into something smooth.

Take for example I rode last night on the back of my friends bandit 1250. When giving it abit more poke (OMG THERE IS SO MUCH MORE POKE THAN MY HORNET!!) he clutched at highrevs to shift up and it was quite disconcerting having that much power come on and off. Made me rock back and forth really harshly.

So infact I'm gonna call you lazy for depending on the clutch to ride

[Glowerss]

I don't see how it's lazy? It was actually abit tricky to get it smooth but now I can climb through the gears smoothly without interuption. I still use the clutch depending on the situation, its not like I've forgotten about it. I just don't need to use it when climbing up the gears picking up speed. Feels brilliant when you click up and there's no chain lash just a change in the engine tone. I reckon it teaches you to match the engine speed with your throttle properly as oppose to clutch slipping the hamfisting into something smooth.

Take for example I rode last night on the back of my friends bandit 1250. When giving it abit more poke (OMG THERE IS SO MUCH MORE POKE THAN MY HORNET!!) he clutched at highrevs to shift up and it was quite disconcerting having that much power come on and off. Made me rock back and forth really harshly.

So infact I'm gonna call you lazy for depending on the clutch to ride

Well, its your bike and you can do what you want! But the way I understand it, for most bikes, if you do clutchless upshifts perfectly, they're fairly harmless. But if you stuff it up, it can do some harm. Ill leave you with the explanation:

Think of a steel bar that fits into a hole into another piece of metal. Now put the bar under shear by pulling laterally to one side - this is engine torque. Now start pulling the bar out of the hole while continuing to keep it under shear. The pulling is your boot pressing on the shift lever commanding the dogs to disengage the gear from a shaft.

Note two things:

1) As the bar starts to come out of the hole, the shearing force (engine torque) becomes concentrated over a smaller and smaller area. The dogs are sized to be able to handle engine torque but when you continue to apply torque during the shift, you're overstressing them by continuing to apply torque while you are reducing the contact area.

2) As the bar just clears the hole, the sharp edge of the hole will tend to round off the sharp edge of the bar as the two shear past one another. This is equivalent to the shift dogs being rounded off. And when they get rounded off they develop a slope which tends to want to make then disengage out of of the hole. (You will often hear about a performance technique called "undercutting" for a race gearbox - what this does is actually machine the shift dogs sightly non-flat so this shearing wear problem is lessened.)

That's what's insidious about doing this sort of thing. It seems to work Okay and it seems to work for awhile, but then suddenly your bike starts popping out of 2nd gear as you pour on the power after the shift. That's the rounded shift dogs no longer able to keep the shaft and gear engaged.

Clutchless upshifts done well - generally innocous, but way take the risk of screwing it up? Clutchless downshifts - just don't go there.

Edit: woops well spotted maha. I just grabbed that from google. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r...g-trouble.html Is where explanation came from. Naughty I should quote me sources.

[Subike]

Yup glowers is on to it, It may seem that your not doing any damage, but you are, I use the clutchon up shift much in the fashion you do, without the clutch, can keep a constant torque pull on the drive train from the releasing of the clutch at take off, to engaging top gear.
You just have to learn the point on the clutch lever that allows just enough slip to complete the gear change, but also allowing just enough drag to keep the power being transferred to the drive line. Similar action to what the cut out button on race care uses for the ignition, so they can do max rev clutch less gear changes under full power.A millisecond of power drop,

[Maha]

Yup glowers is on to it, It may seem that your not doing any damage, but you are, I use the clutchon up shift much in the fashion you do, without the clutch, can keep a constant torque pull on the drive train from the releasing of the clutch at take off, to engaging top gear.
You just have to learn the point on the clutch lever that allows just enough slip to complete the gear change, but also allowing just enough drag to keep the power being transferred to the drive line. Similar action to what the cut out button on race care uses for the ignition, so they can do max rev clutch less gear changes under full power.A millisecond of power drop,

Well someone called Mark from another forum is...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r...g-trouble.html

''Think of a steel bar that fits into a hole into another piece of metal. Now put the bar under shear by pulling laterally to one side - this is engine torque. Now start pulling the bar out of the hole while continuing to keep it under shear. The pulling is your boot pressing on the shift lever commanding the dogs to disengage the gear from a shaft.

Note two things:

1) As the bar starts to come out of the hole, the shearing force (engine torque) becomes concentrated over a smaller and smaller area. The dogs are sized to be able to handle engine torque but when you continue to apply torque during the shift, you're overstressing them by continuing to apply torque while you are reducing the contact area.

2) As the bar just clears the hole, the sharp edge of the hole will tend to round off the sharp edge of the bar as the two shear past one another. This is equivalent to the shift dogs being rounded off. And when they get rounded off they develop a slope which tends to want to make then disengage out of of the hole. (You will often hear about a performance technique called "undercutting" for a race gearbox - what this does is actually machine the shift dogs sightly non-flat so this shearing wear problem is lessened.)

That's what's insidious about doing this sort of thing. It seems to work Okay and it seems to work for awhile, but then suddenly your bike starts popping out of 2nd gear as you pour on the power after the shift. That's the rounded shift dogs no longer able to keep the shaft and gear engaged.

Clutchless upshifts done well - generally innocous, but way take the risk of screwing it up? Clutchless downshifts - just don't go there.''

- Mark

There should be a poll-less thread started on this subject.
Enough conjecture to warrant it...I for one clutchless downshift..

[Subike]

Well then Mark is on the mark with this, Glowers just gave it some light.

[bosslady]

It's easier to go from second into neutral then first into by and large. The shift up from first is quite........... heavy? On most of the bikes ive ridden anyway. I can get it into neutral from first most of the time, but it's FAR easier to go from second into neutral with a real gentle tap downward.

I might start trying this from now on - thanks!

[bosslady]

Why (unless you're a racer??) would you lose a dramatic amount of speed by using your clutch when up shifting. Now, I'm not considering it and I know I only have a ginny but say I'm speeding up quickly when I'm on the on ramp to get up to speed with the mway traffic... I don't lose much speed so long as my hands and feet move quickly all at the right time? I notice when I don't pay enough attention though then yea, I do lose a little bit of speed.

[TheTengTheory]

Well someone called Mark from another forum is...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/bmw-r...g-trouble.html
[I]
''Think of a steel bar that fits into a hole into ....

....Enough conjecture to warrant it...I for one clutchless downshift..

I get your point and yes it is a risk I don't mind doing. You gotta remember we're only riding little two fiddies. Not much torque and shear force going through the gearbox compared to say a 600 or thou.

I accidently downshifted once without clutching....locked my back wheel up....puckered up gooood.

Bosslady: Its not about the speed. Its about the smoothness of the ride. Especially under strong acceleration. Clutching induces huge momentum changes as the bike is going from maximum torque on the chain to zero and back on again in under a second. On a 250cc not that bad....just imagine a 600 or thou! Its like comparing a manual car to an auto car changing gears.

I'm all for using the clutch but in these instances I find it much smoother to just upshift and release the throttle back slightly.

And also another point...don't shift up when you're doing left hand corners...your toes don't like getting dragged along the ground

[Subike]

I get your point and yes it is a risk I don't mind doing. You gotta remember we're only riding little two fiddies. Not much torque and shear force going through the gearbox compared to say a 600 or thou.

I accidently downshifted once without clutching....locked my back wheel up....puckered up gooood.

Bosslady: Its not about the speed. Its about the smoothness of the ride. Especially under strong acceleration. Clutching induces huge momentum changes as the bike is going from maximum torque on the chain to zero and back on again in under a second. On a 250cc not that bad....just imagine a 600 or thou! Its like comparing a manual car to an auto car changing gears.

I'm all for using the clutch but in these instances I find it much smoother to just upshift and release the throttle back slightly.

And also another point...don't shift up when you're doing left hand corners...your toes don't like getting dragged along the ground

Grasshopper, ye will learn the fine arts of gear changing as gearboxes disintegrate under your bum.....makes no difference what the capacity the bike is son. they only build the parts strong enough to survive the horses that attack them. If you had a 650 gearbox in your 2fiddy, it would never have enough power to turn the weight of the gears alone.
Think why there are very few automatic motor bikes, and those that there are, dont live very long.

[TheTengTheory]

Grasshopper, ye will learn the fine arts of gear changing as gearboxes disintegrate under your bum.....makes no difference what the capacity the bike is son. they only build the parts strong enough to survive the horses that attack them. If you had a 650 gearbox in your 2fiddy, it would never have enough power to turn the weight of the gears alone.
Think why there are very few automatic motor bikes, and those that there are, dont live very long.

Should be fun then

[GrayWolf]

I only use neutral when I'm getting of my bike or on the side of the road...all other situations I just hold the clutch in.....quite tiring at first but now my fingers are meaty little bastards.

When I'm shifting up it occasionally goes into a false neutral (I generally don't clutch on my upshifts), nothing more embarassing then hitting the rev limiter in town pulling outta an intersection ...Good way to catch someones attention. or scare the shit outta the muppet cager infront of you

Holding the clutch in is all well and good, it seems to be a 'bad habit' here maybe because most cars are automatics? and you just leave them in drive at lights? If your driving a manual car, same as a bike and you 'ride the clutch' it's a test FAIL in the UK. All you need is your foot/fingers to slip (example numb fingers on a cold day) and vehicle jumps forward, could leave you lying on the floor, wrestling with it to stay upright, or FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, you do get either pedestrians walking between vehicles, or be close to the one in front... and hit them as the vehicle/bike jerks forwards.....
at stop you should not be in gear, UNLESS you are imminently going to move off again..... (also as an extra, you should have you foot covering the rear brake when stopped, the dreaded 'foot dance' we all 'avoid doing'........ when about to move off again.

[GrayWolf]

I don't see how it's lazy? It was actually abit tricky to get it smooth but now I can climb through the gears smoothly without interuption. I still use the clutch depending on the situation, its not like I've forgotten about it. I just don't need to use it when climbing up the gears picking up speed. Feels brilliant when you click up and there's no chain lash just a change in the engine tone. I reckon it teaches you to match the engine speed with your throttle properly as oppose to clutch slipping the hamfisting into something smooth.

Take for example I rode last night on the back of my friends bandit 1250. When giving it abit more poke (OMG THERE IS SO MUCH MORE POKE THAN MY HORNET!!) he clutched at highrevs to shift up and it was quite disconcerting having that much power come on and off. Made me rock back and forth really harshly.

So infact I'm gonna call you lazy for depending on the clutch to ride

You think it was 'jerky' with a clutched shift??? clutchless can be FAR more jerky, and it also does depend on the bike,,, you would not want to be on the back of my bike 'going for it' doing clutchless shifts...... it's a long stroke big inch V twin.... and clutchless changes are an 'art' on big twins. The jerking back and front you were feeling is more due to the 'sudden decelleration between the application of power at each gearchange, then re-application as the throttle is opened up and you are not used to compensating for it as a pillion... clutcjless changes STILL require the power to be shut down, their only 'advantage' is the speed (lower time) between power being re-applied..... why when riding on the Queen's highway would you want to do clutchless changes??

It isnt something IMO that should be being discussed as a 'viable' method of gearchanging in a thread for 'complete newbies'..... Not a technique people like Bosslady should be contemplating at anything like this stage of their riding career...

[TheTengTheory]

Holding the clutch in is all well and good, it seems to be a 'bad habit' here maybe because most cars are automatics? and you just leave them in drive at lights? If your driving a manual car, same as a bike and you 'ride the clutch' it's a test FAIL in the UK. All you need is your foot/fingers to slip (example numb fingers on a cold day) and vehicle jumps forward, could leave you lying on the floor, wrestling with it to stay upright, or FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, you do get either pedestrians walking between vehicles, or be close to the one in front... and hit them as the vehicle/bike jerks forwards.....
at stop you should not be in gear, UNLESS you are imminently going to move off again..... (also as an extra, you should have you foot covering the rear brake when stopped, the dreaded 'foot dance' we all 'avoid doing'........ when about to move off again.

If your fingers are that numb you shouldn't be riding in that weather full stop so thats an even bigger hazard. Yes its all situational but the majority of the time I don't have to wait for very long to bother with changing to neutral changing feet brake and changing to first and back. If its long yes because it does get tiring eventually. But it's palmerston north.

I'm not saying this is the ONLY way I ride. This is the way I find easiest to ride and I'm riding a cb250 not a big v twin. Again I will change if it suits but this is the smoothest way for me and using clutch between shifts at times is more a hassle than it's worth (in my eyes).

Clarification: How do you compensate for the loss of power regardless of pillion or not? I would assume if the clutch is applied, there is a loss in power regardless hence the back and forth jerkyness....Only way I can think of is using the friction point of the clutch to shift but thats effectively clutchless shifting since a botched shift will result in the same result as a bad clutchless shift

If its not a beginners option than do you think learning it on a big twin for the first time will be easier or harder? Also it doesn't require the power to be completely shut down, just enough to release the gear. I don't completely close the throttle when I change, i just release it slightly to unload the gearbox and that is sufficient enough to pop the gear up. There is the sound of the gear changing and engine note change and thats it. (mechanically I'm not completely sure how it works). It gives me the smoothest ride for me. Why in queens land would you buy a big twin when a 250cc can sustain 100kph.

Anyways I'll end my point there. Though I completely agree with the foot dance and rear brake. So confusing when you're not use to riding a bike!!!

Edit: The learning on a big twin only applies if you meant being a learner than changing to a bigger bike when you're qualified with abit of experience. I just had a look on the net. The clutchless shift debate is long and very very complicated with confusing mechanical explanations.

[bosslady]

You think it was 'jerky' with a clutched shift??? clutchless can be FAR more jerky, and it also does depend on the bike,,, you would not want to be on the back of my bike 'going for it' doing clutchless shifts...... it's a long stroke big inch V twin.... and clutchless changes are an 'art' on big twins. The jerking back and front you were feeling is more due to the 'sudden decelleration between the application of power at each gearchange, then re-application as the throttle is opened up and you are not used to compensating for it as a pillion... clutcjless changes STILL require the power to be shut down, their only 'advantage' is the speed (lower time) between power being re-applied..... why when riding on the Queen's highway would you want to do clutchless changes??

It isnt something IMO that should be being discussed as a 'viable' method of gearchanging in a thread for 'complete newbies'..... Not a technique people like Bosslady should be contemplating at anything like this stage of their riding career...

Hey... don't bring me into this, lol. I never said I wanted to, in fact I thought I said I didn't, cause I don't. I don't have any problem with deceleration such as what was mentioned, unless of course my feet and or hands are being lazy and or are out of sync.

[Cam_NZ]

what the hell just happened???