You wouldn't have thought so, but what if they're getting their arse kicked?Originally Posted by awa355
Sickening eh.
Wonder why they never organised themselves any better than they have? Just another useless leader I guess.
Aio ki te Aorangi
You wouldn't have thought so, but what if they're getting their arse kicked?
Sickening eh.
Wonder why they never organised themselves any better than they have? Just another useless leader I guess.
I didn't think!!! I experimented!!!
Wearing Hi-Viz Black.
..........
TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”
Anarchic Wild Child
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Hardcore Biker
I can't see any beef between China and North Korea. China is giving aid.
The beef is with the US.
My reading of the news we have had over the years is that given a more sympathetic treatment by the US, or no involvement at all, then a reunited Korea would have been a distinct possibility by now.
The Masters of War that had George Bush 2 doing his dastardly deeds are no doubt still in power.They need a new war.
They have invested a lot of time and money promoting Nth. Korea as a country to invade.
The payment for any war will ideally come from the rest of the world as in the first Persion Gulf War. Sanctioned by the UN the rest of the world paid for that one.
It was good business.
But as we saw with Bush Jnr. those that profit from war are not averse to making the American public pay for it if they can't get UN backing for their enterprises.
Any invasion by the US, and a 'Coalition of the Willing', without United Nations sanction would be financially reckless.
Under the provisions of the Geneva and Hague conventions they would be considered an occupying power and would therefore be responsible for all the costs of maintaining and restoring government, education and other services for the people of North Korea.
Like in Iraq .......... - Tui moment.
What I would like to see is the rest of the world getting some of the dozens of UN resolutions against Israel enforced.
This won't happen because of the involvement of the US. No prizes for guessing who controls the US.
If a portion of the aid given to Israel was redirected to the starving people of North Korea then their Nuclear programme would probably not have been given legs.
Time in reign in these Dogs of War.
Time to step back from the brink of war, to not prematurely or unnecessarily risk the costs of worldwide nuclear war where even the fruits of victory would be ashes in their mouths.
Atheism and Religion are but two sides of the same coin.
One prefers to use its head, while the other relies on tales.
Aio ki te Aorangi
heh... War, it's for the people's own good that leaders who don't toe the line should be removed irrespective of cost. They've had weapons for decades, so what has changed to make NK more of a threat? What is it that NK want? I've had a hunt and I've not found a single thing. At least they used the excuse of WMD for Iraq... which oddly enough turned out to be incorrect and was really just an oil grab. So why is it that North Korea have become so unpopular with the West? These questions are never asked. Unwavering trust that TPTB know what they're doing and aren't going to war just for the sake of the economy and to line a few people's pockets.
Hardcore Biker
US actions have made North Korea unhappy. Their behaviour is reactionary. Why the US have adopted the line they have is open to conjecture. They certainly did not want a reunified Korea. The US propaganda flying around is a rerun of that seen before the Persian Gulf War and what we see about Iran as well.
Atheism and Religion are but two sides of the same coin.
One prefers to use its head, while the other relies on tales.
Night rider
June 25th 1950. North Korea attcked South Korea without provacation and the Korean war began. The United Nations stepped in to repel the north, and was assisted by, inter alia, USA and New Zealand.
That war has never ended. Although a truce was agreed to, the war still continues today.
In recent years North Korea has shelled the south. they have sunk a South Korean boat, and continue to make threats. Yet somehow USA has upset North Korea? Yeah right.
Time to ride
Born to be mild
And I believe they placed a bomb on a South Korean airliner killing all those aboard a few years back.
Grow older but never grow up
Hardcore Biker
So, you don't recall the reunification talks and the opening of the borders?
If you do, then do you also recall who instigated those talks?
Do you recall the reason for US talks with Nth. Korea that led to the Koreans carrying out their threat to develop Nucleur weapons. (If in fact they have.)
What is the reason for US intransigence.
What did the Koreans want?
Food aid?
The right to trade?
... or are you saying the US had no involvement - it is totally one-sided, a continuation of the war that has never ended?
Atheism and Religion are but two sides of the same coin.
One prefers to use its head, while the other relies on tales.
Wearing Hi-Viz Black.
There is another indicator. Chinese aid had vastly diminished in quantity.
Why?
Because they are sick of their donations being stolen by the dictatorship and sold (quite blatantly) to fund their lifestyle/s. NGO aid organisations are doing the same.
China's warning NOT to test their latest nuke went unheeded and that changes the game quite somewhat.
What is for sure is that China does not want a reunified Korea (under democratic rule) on its border.
TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”
Genuine hp
10mfchars
"Sorry Officer, umm.... my yellow power band got stuck wide open"
Wearing Hi-Viz Black.
The Glorious Leader hasn't been seen for two weeks and now Psy has released a new song (Gentlemen).
I wonder if there is a link here...
TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”
Born to be mild
No they've never been seen together. Are they one and the same person?!The Glorious Leader hasn't been seen for two weeks and now Psy has released a new song (Gentlemen).
I wonder if there is a link here...
Grow older but never grow up
Hardcore Biker
Where do you get this information?
I'm beginning to wonder if you have links to the US propaganda agency.
You are a hive of information ... from the public domain?
Atheism and Religion are but two sides of the same coin.
One prefers to use its head, while the other relies on tales.
Wearing Hi-Viz Black.
Mr Hinny, this information is from an independent int. source and not from military or "propaganda" sources. The bullshit vomited out via our "media" is pathetic, so this information I believe is of more relevance.
15 April 2013: North Korea is again running one of its big extortion campaigns against the rest of the world. This is the biggest and boldest yet, with threats of nuclear weapon armed missiles being fired at Japan and other enemies. All this media theatre has more impact the further you get from North Korea. In the two Koreas it is pretty much business as usual. The planting season has begun in the north and that has ended the token military mobilizations (used as a media event to scare the foreigners).
Most troops are now doing what they normally do this time of year, help with growing food. North Korea desperately needs this food, especially since reforms (incentives for farmers) in the last year appear to have worked and increased production a little bit. That’s remarkable considering the growing fuel, fertilizer and other shortages farmers have to deal with. The weather has been bad in many parts of the country for the last two years and there has been a noticeable increase in starvation related deaths and illness. Scaring foreigners does not help much if you are very hungry.
The implicit message in all the North Korean threats is that if someone offers some free food and fuel the aggressive messages would disappear. No one has stepped up and China has apparently quietly threatened cuts in aid if the North Korean don’t quiet down. As these campaigns go, they usually end abruptly with the northerners declaring some kind of victory and that’s it. While it would be nice if all this theatre produced some free stuff from fearful foreigners, Kim Jong Un could win inside North Korea without getting a payoff from the foreigners, because he has shown his henchmen that the new boss can work the foreign media even more adroitly than daddy or grandpa.
China is angry at all this North Korean theatre.
The current barrage of threats from North Korea is upsetting Chinese trading partners and is bad for business. North Korean actions have caused a massive amount of international media speculation and FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt). While this is not much of a problem for China, which strictly controls its own media, it forces politicians in nations with a free press to respond to their anxious voters. This can lead to decisions that are not favourable for China.
The most unfavourable decision would be for Japan and South Korea to develop nuclear weapons. Both could do so quickly and would complicate Chinese foreign policy. Currently, Chinese diplomacy is backed up by the fact that China has nukes and that limits how far other nations can go in threatening China. That works both ways and China tries to maintain reasonably good relations with South Korea and Japan because both nations are trading partners and tension and threats are bad for business. China may be a communist police state, but the leadership remains in power only because they keep the economy growing. The neighbours know this, and have not felt compelled to go through the political, economic and diplomatic hassle of building their own nuclear weapons capability. But the current hysteria could force Japan and South Korea to go nuclear. China would lose a diplomatic edge and there would be an increase in the risk of someone actually using nukes.
China does not like to publicly criticize an ally and has been low-key in its public comments to North Korea over the current unpleasantness. But China has other ways to send a Shit-o-gram to the Boy General (one of the official nicknames for Kim Jong Un). China has ordered its Internet media operatives to say what they think about the Boy General. As a result popular Chinese Internet personalities are saying what the government prefers not to say (that Kim Jong Un is a fat little dork, asshole, maniac or whatever). Chinese Internet commentators are often local celebrities who are allowed to spout on their website or microblog (the tightly controlled Chinese version of Twitter) as long as they do not say anything the government censors do not approve of. The Chinese people understand how this works and know which blog posts are crap and which are sincere. The jabs at the Boy General are largely sincere, with the posters saying what a lot of Chinese think about North Korea.
Yet China is unwilling, or unable, to actually replace Kim Jong Un. Since the Cold War (and Russian subsidies that kept the North Korean economy afloat) ended in 1991 China has picked up some of the slack. China has become unhappy with the incompetent leadership in North Korea as the Kim dynasty refuses to undergo the kind of economic reform that has kept the Chinese Communists comfortably in power. Staging a coup in North Korea has always been a possibility but the paranoid (for good reason in this case) North Korean leadership has made it difficult for China to recruit enough North Korean officials to make this feasible. That said, the potential is still there and China could still go this route.
Many North Koreans believe that the Chinese will take over if it appears that the North Korean government is about to fall apart. The Chinese plan to install pro-Chinese North Koreans as head of a new "North Korean" government, and institute the kind of economic reforms they have been urging the North Korean to undertake for over a decade.
The Chinese do not want North Korea to merge with South Korea, nor do they want North Korea to collapse (and send millions of starving refugees into northern China). China and South Korea both want North Korea to stay independent, and harmless. Thus China is willing to unofficially annex North Korea, knowing that the South Koreans would go along with this as long as the fiction of North Korean independence was maintained. South Korea won't admit this, but most South Koreans know that absorbing North Korea would put a big dent in South Korean living standards. That is more unpopular than any other outcome. While all Koreans would like a united Korea, far fewer are willing to pay the price.
The North Korean government has ordered a crackdown on the use of USB memory sticks to bring in Chinese and South Korean movies and TV shows. Many North Korean families have inexpensive Chinese DVD players (which are still legal) that have a USB port. Police have been ordered to go door-to-door to find homes with these DVD players and disable the USB capabilities. After that is done a sticker is placed over the USB port indicating that the change has been made. Police are making lots of money selling the stickers without altering the USB port.
April 14, 2013: Chinese leaders told visiting American senior officials that the two countries will cooperate to persuade North Korea to halt its nuclear weapons program. There was no mention of exactly what China would do but the implication is that the Chinese would do more to get North Korea to behave and they would do some of it in cooperation with the United States. This could be a big help to American intelligence, because North Korea is the strictest police states on the planet. Establishing an espionage network there has always been extremely difficult and apparently the Americans are highly dependent on South Korea, and now China, for better intel on what is going on inside North Korea.
China has always had the best espionage network because China came to the aid of North Korea in 1950 after the North Korean invasion of South Korea backfired. Ever since then China has been a major trading partner and some Chinese were able to move about more freely than any other foreigners (even the Russians, who kept North Korea solvent until 1991). North Korea will occasionally crack down on Chinese inside North Korea (especially those engaged in illegal stuff) but has not kept Chinese out of the country.
The Chinese government regularly questions Chinese who have been in North Korea and has gathered an enormous quantity of data on what is going on. South Korea, by virtue of the steady stream of North Korean refugees (25,000 since 1953, most of them in the last decade) reaching South Korea, and the ability to communicate with the several hundred thousand North Korean refugees living in northeast China has also compiled a lot of useful stuff. The U.S. has access to the South Korean network, but China has not been so accommodating. If that has changed, the Americans are now in a better position to cope with whatever new insanity the North Koreans might create.
One question U.S. intel experts would like to answer is the degree to which Russian (and Chinese) missile and nuclear weapons experts have, or still are, aiding North Korea. Both countries have contributed to North Korea’s weapons development programmes.
All Chinese assistance had to be approved by the Chinese government. Same deal with Russia, until the 1990s. At that point, with the Soviet Union gone, along with 80 percent of Soviet era defence spending, a lot of Russian weapons experts were unemployed and willing to sell state secrets if the payoff was large enough. As a result of this North Korea is known to have received quite a bit of help in ballistic missile design (this could be seen in the details of North Korean missiles developed in the last decade).
What help they got on nuclear weapons is less clear. The three North Korean weapons tests conducted so far indicate a crude design. This would appear to mean North Korea had to develop the design largely by themselves. A separate question is whether Russia supplied technical help on adapting a nuclear weapon to handle the physical and electronic stresses of being launched by a ballistic missile.
This is no trivial task and problems with warhead design continue to plague the existing nuclear powers. It would appear that the North Koreans have not yet “weaponized” their nuclear device’s design to work in a missile (or even an aircraft bomb). But the possibility of illicitly obtained Russian tech is a possibility until evidence to the contrary is found. The same with technical assistance from Pakistan, which was helped by China to develop its nuclear warhead equipped missiles.
North Korea is threatening to fire some of its long range ballistic missiles. South Korea, Japan and United States all say they will attempt to shoot down any such missiles.
12 April 2013: The North Korean government announced that government provided food rations would return to normal this September. Few North Koreans believed this. A growing number of North Koreans get their food from the legal (or quasi-legal) markets, where prices rise and fall according to supply and demand. The government rations are given out on holidays and in times of scarcity. But these rations have been cut steadily over the last two decades because of growing food shortages. And all through that period the government has promised that it would make it all better, real soon.
11 April 2013: Kim Jong Un has now been the official leader of North Korea for one year, and what a year it has been. Early on Kim spoke of dealing with the hunger problem (just mentioning it was a big step forward) and the tense relations between the two Koreas. But the reality is that Kim’s rule has been harsher than his fathers (who died in December 2011). Kim Jong Un has also been harder on foreigners, including China.
This appears to indicate an attempt to silence critics in the military by showing everyone that, while Kim Jong Un may look like a fat little rich kid, he is actually made of sterner stuff and very much the badass dictator. Then again, this may all be the work of his aunt and her devious husband. Both are recognized as advisors of the Boy General and often give orders in his name.
10 April 2013: Chinese tour operators have been ordered (by the Chinese government) to halt, for the moment, sending groups of Chinese tourists into North Korea. The Chinese government denied that it had issued such an order, but that’s normal. There is apparently some fear that the North Korean government might whip up some anti-Chinese sentiment (historically, China has often had a hostile relationship with the Koreans). However, some cities were declared “safe” and tourism will continue. The tourism brings in badly needed foreign currency and provides good jobs for some North Koreans.
8 April 2013: The Kaesong Industrial Complex in North Korea was ordered to shut down, putting over 50,000 North Koreans out of work. The complex was created in 2004 as a place for South Korean firms to establish factories, using North Korean workers. Workers make about $60 a month, which is higher than most other jobs available. People are willing to pay bribes of up to $200 to get jobs at Kaesong. Not just for the higher pay, but for the ability to buy or steal products made there, and sell them on the local black market.
So far, the North Korean government has not made a serious effort to curb the corruption at Kaesong. Apparently too many people are making too much money there. It is assumed that the shutdown will be temporary as the complex is too important as a source of foreign currency to eliminate completely.
5 April 2013: North Korea warned foreign diplomats that the government could no longer guarantee their safety and that they, and other foreigners, should leave. The diplomats all stayed, as they, along with everyone else in North Korea realizes that all these warlike pronouncements are more theatre than threat.
TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”
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