What should be the national classes?

[Jantar]

How about keeping it really simple?

125 cc
250 cc
500 cc
Open.

[codgyoleracer]

Why even ask on here there arent any Nationals racers on this site

Dont you mean " national winners ..........." :-)

[codgyoleracer]

The intention of this isn't to be a class hater or say what you race is any less that any other person. This is purely my thoughts put into words on a internet site that really doesn't mean anything in the whole scheme of the world. Love it or hate it it is a thread on the internet which means nothing.

Everyone wants a class here in good old un zud. Everyone wants that class to be a national round as well.
I believe we are cutting our own throats by catering for too many classes at a national level. And that is the key word here national level.
I believe are diluting the water too much and as a result individually some classes are floundering while collectively there are still a shit load of people racing bikes.

At a national level meeting, I think, we should be running
Superbikes
Supersport
250 Proddy
Side cars

I can hear people screaming at their screens now.

Reasoning (besides from the fact that almost every other country in the world does the same sort of system)
Superbikes: It is the premier class both here and abroad, this class is the reason we get most of our manufacturer sponsorship, which without it makes the nationals a whole lot less appealing. Plus it is what the pros ride on telly and what kids would aspire to (beside from GP of course)
Supersport: It is the 2nd tier class around the world and probably our most populated class. The racing is generally close and you will see that this year every manufacturer led a race at some point so bike equality is pretty close.
250 Proddy: excellent feeder class, the bikes are modern looking (unlike 150's) and no disrespect at all but superlites was won this year by a bike produced in 1989 or 1990. The bikes are low cost and make for very close racing as they are run pretty stock. This is an ideal class for young kids to be in an environment where they can learn not only race craft but also the professionalism that should come along with it these days. I would also suggest an alternative is a CBR500 class like they use at WSBK but the fact is that no one wants to go out and buy a 10k bike for their first race bike. Although I could see this gaining momentium thanks to one Jake Lewis. (go that man!)
Side cars: they are probably the most unique for of track motorsport and the public love them

Please don't get me wrong, there is certainly a place for other classes in NZ racing, at local club or regional level, my point is National level is different.

Anyway, this should sure ignite some debate. I think we need to unclutter the current format and something like this would free it up, give the stunt guy more time to do his thing at lunch time, let the people get around those trade exhibitions set up in the pits, get the candy floss and play on the bouncy castle with the kids. As well as finally getting to get Sloan Frosts, Nick Cole, Craig Sherriffs etc autograph and photographs at the lunchtime signing session. As well as giving the clubs some time to breathe through the day and deal with any problems that should arise.

Lets go people, what do you think?

Cart before horse and all that shit:
Assuming you dont expect the clubs running the rounds to lose money, then i would start on that being the priority in the first instance.

It then simply becomes a numbers game Entries V Cost of entry, The problem is of course it takes a shed load less cash to run meetings in Invers than it does up north.
So then you have to have to consider the local the clubs 1 or 2 pet 'cash cow classes" to get the entry numbers & $$$ up.
Another option is to charge a shedload more for entry but run the reduced classes suggested and place all entries money into a pool that covers /underwrites the costs of all rounds.

Good luck convincing southland to give some $ to Jaffa-ville,and vice-versa



Waste of time discussing classes until you get the above sorted - as thats the important bit

[steveyb]

My opinion on the matter is that yes, we do have too many classes running at NZSBK level. Can we start actually using that term rather than "The Nationals"? That is such a worn out term and does nothing to polish up the offering. You don't hear the Aussies or the Poms talking about The Nationals. It is ASBK or BSB.

But, we absolutely need to have a class where young riders learn about setting up proper racebikes. If we don't, they will make the step from 250 Production to 600 SS with little or no clue about how to set up a bike to make it work properly (cos there is nothing to set up in 250 Proddy (apparently), well there is, but just not so much).

Clearly 125GP is currently this class and in effect it sort of replaced the 250 Production class we had in the '80s and '90s where the bikes were much more like real race bikes than the current crop of 250 Proddy bikes are.

125GP is however, slowly going to dwindle as bikes become older, harder to get parts for and the newer young riders simply are not interested in racing 2-stroke bikes. Believe me, it is happening already. So the replacement is the GPMono bike which you can buy or build and it will work well.

The new CBR500 looks pretty good too, perhaps a touch slow though?

Remember, not all riders want to race on production machinery and if they are to go to GP (which might happen one day, you never know), teams will not be interested if the young riders have not been racing fully adjustable GP style bikes.
Riders that go the SBK route will be able to go that way with a Production background.

But I still belive that there should be a Formula class to allow talented engineers in NZ to build interesting motorcycles and race at NZSBK level. But there is not the space in a programme to provide a race for everyone, so Pro-Twin and Superlite will need to stay together in my opinion.

I firmly believe that there needs to be the youngsters/development rider involvment at NZSBK, so that they can be a part of the show. It is done all over the world and should be done here. At ASBK it is 250 Production, at BSB it is the Superteen Challenge (Aprilia RS125). But I think that the place for that is 250 Production. We don't need an extra class for 150Streetstock bikes. Encourage your charges who want to get racing to buy 250 Production bikes. They are cheap enough 2nd hand now.

Unfortunately for the Sidey guys, I often wonder about the merits of Sidecars at NZSBK events. Perhaps they might organise a national championship to be held throughout the year at various club events throughout NZ, or perhaps run their NZ championship at the Suzuki Series and some others. This is how the Sidecar World championship runs now (or at least it did a few years back).

So: SBK, SP600, 125GP/GPMono, Superlite/ProTwin, 250/300 Production.

Oh, and I think that the championship should start in the Nth Island or in the Sth Island alternate years if possible.

My 3.5c worth.

[slowpoke]

I'm just not convinced with these underpowered overweight 250 proddy's. Even an SV or ER 650 has a far worse power to weight ratio than the 2T 250 RGV's/TZR's that Crafar/Slight/Stroud started on and with a much friendlier power delivery. I'm not saying bring back the 2T's, I'm saying Pro-Twins already exist, are not rocketships but are a good step to supersport, they are cheap and plentiful, so what is there to be scared of? I just don't see the need for an extra step/diversion/complication in an already cluttered feeder "system". Same goes for the CBR500 which effectively makes for a slower Pro-Twin, for no gain that I can see.

But GW is right, there are some other ducks that need to be herded into a row before we look at restructuring classes: What are we hoping to achieve by running NZSBK each year? Is it about simply finding our best riders? Is it a development tool for young riders? Are we aiming to attract more spectators? Is it about minimising costs to competitors? Is it about making money for the clubs? Or minimising financial risk for the clubs? What exactly is the strategy to achieve any or all of the above? etc etc

The class structure could change dramatically depending on how the priorities are set.

How about all the clubs forming an "NZSBK Co-op", with reps from each club forming one organisational/promotional team to carry out standardised NZSBK meetings, and sharing in the risk/profits? Maybe even investing in equipment/technology/systems they can all share in but couldn't afford or justify individually (vision/sound equipment to film our own meetings to sell to TVNZ/TV3/Sky, as opposed to scratching around to pay for cheap adverts)

[Kickaha]

Unfortunately for the Sidey guys, I often wonder about the merits of Sidecars at NZSBK events. Perhaps they might organise a national championship to be held throughout the year at various club events throughout NZ, or perhaps run their NZ championship at the Suzuki Series and some others. This is how the Sidecar World championship runs now (or at least it did a few years back)

Sidecars have more history competing at Nationals than any other class currently running

The Sidecar world championship also run at a couple of WSBK rounds and the English championshp runs with the BSB

[shoutout]

Cart before horse and all that shit:
Assuming you dont expect the clubs running the rounds to lose money, then i would start on that being the priority in the first instance.

It then simply becomes a numbers game Entries V Cost of entry, The problem is of course it takes a shed load less cash to run meetings in Invers than it does up north.
So then you have to have to consider the local the clubs 1 or 2 pet 'cash cow classes" to get the entry numbers & $$$ up.
Another option is to charge a shedload more for entry but run the reduced classes suggested and place all entries money into a pool that covers /underwrites the costs of all rounds.

Good luck convincing southland to give some $ to Jaffa-ville,and vice-versa



Waste of time discussing classes until you get the above sorted - as thats the important bit

Agree, cart before the horse, unsure which club made a profit out of the NZSBK, ( is that a goal of a club? ) but if we rely on the riders to keep the NZSBK series in profit for each club will the numbers increase with added cost ?? ( as a rider what do i get out of this ?) if not then we will find clubs not wanting to be involved if they keep loosing money ....( is this want we want ?)
We have time to run other classes during the day, if the club can find a class that puts bikes on grid to help towards covering cost then it's should be considered but what is the goal of MNZ or clubs, are they the same? rider numbers, profit, new members, spectators and with all this where dose the sponsor fit in.

[lostinflyz]

could always ditch superbikes. the asian road race champs do not have superbikes........

my understanding is the cost of track hireage (at least at some tracks) is not related to the event being NZSBK or nats, but around both the time of year (i.e. all major events are at this time) and the fact that entry is charged for admission.

surely you wouldn't drop nats classes until you have dropped all support classes?? my 2c is you actually need to tie nats into what happens at a club level. If clubs are going to run successful groups of Streetstock and Pre 89 ect why not bring those to a nats level, as thats where the bikes are, this is exactly why 600SP if going well at the moment IMO. Surely its about going racing, what your on makes no difference.

and if someone mentions spectators/joe public ill kick them in the balls.........

[codgyoleracer]

I'm just not convinced with these underpowered overweight 250 proddy's. Even an SV or ER 650 has a far worse power to weight ratio than the 2T 250 RGV's/TZR's that Crafar/Slight/Stroud started on and with a much friendlier power delivery. I'm not saying bring back the 2T's, I'm saying Pro-Twins already exist, are not rocketships but are a good step to supersport, they are cheap and plentiful, so what is there to be scared of? I just don't see the need for an extra step/diversion/complication in an already cluttered feeder "system". Same goes for the CBR500 which effectively makes for a slower Pro-Twin, for no gain that I can see.

But GW is right, there are some other ducks that need to be herded into a row before we look at restructuring classes: What are we hoping to achieve by running NZSBK each year? Is it about simply finding our best riders? Is it a development tool for young riders? Are we aiming to attract more spectators? Is it about minimising costs to competitors? Is it about making money for the clubs? Or minimising financial risk for the clubs? What exactly is the strategy to achieve any or all of the above? etc etc

The class structure could change dramatically depending on how the priorities are set.

How about all the clubs forming an "NZSBK Co-op", with reps from each club forming one organisational/promotional team to carry out standardised NZSBK meetings, and sharing in the risk/profits? Maybe even investing in equipment/technology/systems they can all share in but couldn't afford or justify individually (vision/sound equipment to film our own meetings to sell to TVNZ/TV3/Sky, as opposed to scratching around to pay for cheap adverts)

Spuddly Spuddly Spuddly, you tender wee gullable thing you.......

1) There is already a co-op (it goes by the name MNZ)
2) Clubs sharing ?, - have a chat with the organisers of some of the biggest meetings in the country (Wanganui / Paeroa ), (Ak Classics/ SOT ) even with that sort of success trying to run them as a series appears "undooable" , and dont get me started on incorporating meetings like the Burt Munro as part of the nationals - as that is impossible apparently.
3) You have heard about the south island north island psyche thing aye ?.......... (yes i know if youve travelled the world a bit it is all gets pretty tedious - but nevertheless, it strong and healthy here)
4) As far as your statement " Is it about simply finding our best riders? Is it a development tool for young riders? Are we aiming to attract more spectators? Is it about minimising costs to competitors? Is it about making money for the clubs? Or minimising financial risk for the clubs?"

YES to all except for minimising costs to competitors (at least in the short term)


Can you tell its cold and wet here where i am today, and i cant go and ride my motorbike ?, - it makes me put my sarcasm hat on...... :-)

[Billy]

Why even ask on here there arent any Nationals racers on this site

Now thats just not true,

Unfortunately 99% of those that have posted on this thread are either still living in the 60s,Haven't bothered to do any research at all and haven't noticed that some of their ideas have already been implemented in the past 12 months or are just plain too busy trying to promote their own interests they can't see the wood for the tree's.

The top level riders boycotting the Nationals...Seriously,How will that help??What are you gonna do when the distributors that do support the series pull out because theyre not getting the coverage required and all the top level 600s and Superbikes are gone from the grid?

Lets face it,The main event's at any meeting are Superbikes and 600s or F1 and F2,Everything else is realistically a support class or development for newer entrants,That said why is it all the classes bar the main events have up until now had 3 races per round as opposed to 2 for Supers and 600s????.

Realistically the only thing that will make any significant difference would be for one entity to run the NZSBK series,No promoter in their right mind would ever take it on in its current format,Try as I might,I have tried to get a club to take it over and run the whole series,But as there are only 2 clubs with the ability to do so and both turned me down,We are stuck with the status quo,Albeit with a different approach for 2014,Heres hoping there will be some improvement.

[shoutout]

Now thats just not true,

Unfortunately 99% of those that have posted on this thread are either still living in the 60s,Haven't bothered to do any research at all and haven't noticed that some of their ideas have already been implemented in the past 12 months or are just plain too busy trying to promote their own interests they can't see the wood for the tree's.

The top level riders boycotting the Nationals...Seriously,How will that help??What are you gonna do when the distributors that do support the series pull out because theyre not getting the coverage required and all the top level 600s and Superbikes are gone from the grid?

Lets face it,The main event's at any meeting are Superbikes and 600s or F1 and F2,Everything else is realistically a support class or development for newer entrants,That said why is it all the classes bar the main events have up until now had 3 races per round as opposed to 2 for Supers and 600s????.

Realistically the only thing that will make any significant difference would be for one entity to run the NZSBK series,No promoter in their right mind would ever take it on in its current format,Try as I might,I have tried to get a club to take it over and run the whole series,But as there are only 2 clubs with the ability to do so and both turned me down,We are stuck with the status quo,Albeit with a different approach for 2014,Heres hoping there will be some improvement.

Hi Billy,

Can you enlighten the "different approach" or what improvements would you like to see, please feel free to PM or is it on MNZ site ?? Please I'm here to listen, understand and learn, i want to make a difference, my balls are already on the line with where I'm heading ha ha

Dean

[Shorty_925]

I see it as the same problem in most series world wide, you have 1000cc bikes, 600cc bikes and then what do you run after that? De-tuned/restricted(superstock) 1000cc & 600cc bikes? One make series(not a fan)? I remember from the WSBk events I have been to, seeing the same type of bikes on track but are detuned/restricted, it gets old and boring.

Either way, I looking forward to the racing on the track in '14.

[cmoore]

what should be in the nationals.......Australians......lets dump our national series and instead run two rounds of the Australian series over here...

[Fast Eddie]

At a national level meeting, I think, we should be running
Superbikes
Supersport
250 Proddy
Side cars

Reasoning (besides from the fact that almost every other country in the world does the same sort of system)

Side cars: they are probably the most unique for of track motorsport and the public love them

Agreed. Those 4 classes would be fine: 250 for learners, supersport for progressing up and superbikes for the big boys. And sidecars for the Men..

Entrant no.s are key - you can reduce it to 4 classes if you like, Tracks charge up to 4 times as much when its a national levelled event. With a grand total of 8 chairs maybe ...

try 18 sidecars entered in 2013 National champs... and in the teens for barry sheene/wangas/paeroa 2012/2013.. with more bikes being bought this year..

There's got to be a "fiddlers formula" in there too. Superlite seems to be the only one at present (other than the cheaters in 250 prod)
Remember you're not just training riders, you have to have a place for the builders and tuners to learn their craft.
ftsman/artisan who can build the odd and unusual...

very true.

My 2 cents

300cc Production class
A one make CBR 500 / similar type class )obviously with importer backing
600 supersport class
Superbike class
Sidecars class

Sidecars as stated are popular... dont float my boat but after this years showing look like they are making the changes needed.

Agreed
Have you had a go on one yet? HAGD coming up in may.. floats most peoples boat that have a pulse and warm blood..

Unfortunately for the Sidey guys, I often wonder about the merits of Sidecars at NZSBK events. Perhaps they might organise a national championship to be held throughout the year at various club events throughout NZ, or perhaps run their NZ championship at the Suzuki Series and some others. This is how the Sidecar World championship runs now (or at least it did a few years back).

No.

Sidecars go waaay back, lots of history and heritige. We want to run at suzuki series AND national champs and every other event as well. on the world stage Sidecars used to run along the motoGP (or world champs when they were 500cc 2 strokes) and used to run along side world superbikes eh? and they still run some rounds with superbikes and british superbikes. and lets not forget the Isle of Man TT and so on.. bikes and sidecars go hand in hand and the spectators love them. Ask around the crowds/spectators..

Lets not forget some or even most of the sidecar riders ride solo bikes as well.. we love being a part of the events and don't want to be split off and left on our own. Numbers are increasing rapidly last season and this season as well.

Sidecars have more history competing at Nationals than any other class currently running

The Sidecar world championship also run at a couple of WSBK rounds and the English championshp runs with the BSB

What he said ^

Lets face it,The main event's at any meeting are Superbikes and 600s or F1 and F2.

Says who? one would have to take a survey from all the spectators at each meeting what they came to watch More spectators would help turn over some cash I think.. I only watched the north island rounds on CTAS but it never looked that packed there..

what should be in the nationals.......Australians......lets dump our national series and instead run two rounds of the Australian series over here...

You've sniffed too much paint today haven't you?

[CHOPPA]

Side cars were very good this year I must admit!

Sounds like Billy is on to it though so we are in good hands.