Boston bombing

[Paul in NZ]

Everything is a conspiracy unless it can be proven. What's worse, the bombing, or this? Moral of the story. There are people in places where it's nigh on impossible to get caught out and until they do, they'll do ANYTHING for money, including killing people that they don't know or even care about. So whilst I appreciate your point of view and agree with you in regards to trust etc... trust and respect has to be earned... and given the way TPTB conduct their business i.e. govts withholding information about ANYTHING at all for business advantage or security purposes (it has all been paid for by the public) then they will earn neither from me. They seek and hold these positions of responsibility for a reason and it's not to serve people. But by all means call me a conspiracy fan, so long as you don't mind me pointing the finger at you (you know the one) and calling you an gullible fool also. Fuckers is fuckers and they run the world no question about it!

Isnt this the whole point of what I'm saying?

Eventually the system roots these fuckers out. Yes it can take an unacceptably long time because the system trusts and relies on Judges to be straight up and usually they are...

As for doing anything for money - its far worse than that. People can end up doing anything for well - anything... Religion, money, sex, fame or even some kind of sketchy ethnic unhappiness or grudge. You name it - it can be a reason to kill maim and generally behave like an arsehole. The western democracies (in general) have pretty good systems of checks and balances to keep it all in check. Its not perfect but it works better than it does in snackbaristan and yet everyone wants to blow it up and tear it down because its not perfect... I just think its a case of being very careful what you wish for...

[mashman]

Isnt this the whole point of what I'm saying?

Eventually the system roots these fuckers out. Yes it can take an unacceptably long time because the system trusts and relies on Judges to be straight up and usually they are...

As for doing anything for money - its far worse than that. People can end up doing anything for well - anything... Religion, money, sex, fame or even some kind of sketchy ethnic unhappiness or grudge. You name it - it can be a reason to kill maim and generally behave like an arsehole. The western democracies (in general) have pretty good systems of checks and balances to keep it all in check. Its not perfect but it works better than it does in snackbaristan and yet everyone wants to blow it up and tear it down because its not perfect... I just think its a case of being very careful what you wish for...

I wasn't too sure tbh.

The thing is though it's the system that breeds them. Take a look at the kiddy fiddler hunts in the UK. Whilst there may well be systems in place and there may well be people getting caught, how many are getting away with it? I'm exceptionally unhappy about that. It's just not good enough. I don't want the system torn down, I want it phased out and replaced with something that offers less reasons to commit fucked up acts towards others. I ain't looking for perfection as I'm more than aware that that is improbable, but we can do better... and not just slightly better either. I've got that faith in humanity that you're talking about, I always will have, but we only go in the direction that we're being led and currently that direction is one where TPTB can be bought. That can be remedied.

[Paul in NZ]

I wasn't too sure tbh.

The thing is though it's the system that breeds them. Take a look at the kiddy fiddler hunts in the UK. Whilst there may well be systems in place and there may well be people getting caught, how many are getting away with it? I'm exceptionally unhappy about that. It's just not good enough. I don't want the system torn down, I want it phased out and replaced with something that offers less reasons to commit fucked up acts towards others. I ain't looking for perfection as I'm more than aware that that is improbable, but we can do better... and not just slightly better either. I've got that faith in humanity that you're talking about, I always will have, but we only go in the direction that we're being led and currently that direction is one where TPTB can be bought. That can be remedied.

There isnt a system EVER that has managed to detect people like kiddie fiddlers before they do something nasty.

All systems require some kind of buy in from the general populace (ie voluntary compliance) and in general cannot cope with people who deliberately decide to act badly. ie if you decide to ride your bike faster than 100kph and are very very cunning and secretive about where and when you do it you are highly unlikely to get caught. The same if you were a very clever and patient criminal and were very selective about your criminal act - good chance you will get away with it...

Thats where compliance with a societies laws, ethic's, manners and personal responsibility come into play and allow societies to flourish with out repressive supervision. And thats the danger I see in all these conspiracy ideas. They errode faith in 'the system' which in general works quite well....

[Katman]

Thats where compliance with a societies laws, ethic's, manners and personal responsibility come into play and allow societies to flourish with out repressive supervision. And thats the danger I see in all these conspiracy ideas. They errode faith in 'the system' which in general works quite well....

And it is the responsibility of the masses to ensure that TPTB comply with those same laws & ethics.

You yourself have already stated that TPTB are often guilty of grossly overstepping that line.

Only by intense scrutiny of anything that 'stinks' are we likely to maintain clean and positive governance.

[Edbear]

Notable is that those most vocal in thier criticism of TPTB are not willing to do anything positive about it. Just keyboard warriors with the smugness of sitting back in their arm chairs and not actualy doing anything to improve the situation.

You don't like the Govt.? So show us how it should be done, BE the Govt.! BE the Policeman/woman, the lawyer the judge!

Put your money where your large mouths are and get some credibility for your bluster and angst.

[Katman]

Notable is that those most vocal in thier criticism of TPTB are not willing to do anything positive about it. Just keyboard warriors with the smugness of sitting back in their arm chairs and not actualy doing anything to improve the situation.

You don't like the Govt.? So show us how it should be done, BE the Govt.! BE the Policeman/woman, the lawyer the judge!

Put your money where your large mouths are and get some credibility for your bluster and angst.

That's not how it works Ed.

As I said, it's the responsibility of the masses to keep governments honest.

[Edbear]

That's not how it works Ed.

As I said, it's the responsibility of the masses to keep governments honest.

Sounds like a great Tui ad...

[Katman]

Sounds like a great Tui ad...

No, a great Tui ad would be.....

They must be telling the truth - they're the government.

[oneofsix]

No, a great Tui ad would be.....

They must be telling the truth - they're the government.

You bet me to it. I was thinking along the lines, the Government will stay honest without public overview.

Puts you in mind of Dot Com, GCSB CEO selection, etc.

That said I don't think the Boston Bombing was a Government set-up.

[Edbear]

"The Government" is made up of people, and people are people, not some weird alien race with an agenda.

Most politicians enter politics because they want to change things for the better, to improve the lives of the citizens of the country, not to rape and pillage the rights of people for their own ends. What ends?

Government is two processes - putting in place "stuff" that will grow the economy and improve the lives of its citizens, and on the other hand, reacting - yes it is a reactionary process - to crime and violence in an attempt to curb it for the security of those same citizens.

So if you want to blame someone for the erosion of freedoms, blame those who cause the reaction in the first place. The Government has far better things to spend its time and money on than trying to cope with the stupidity and criminal actions of its citizens.

Also notable is the lack of serious and practical suggestions for doing so by these keyboard warriors.

[oneofsix]

"The Government" is made up of people, and people are people, not some weird alien race with an agenda.

Most politicians enter politics because they want to change things for the better, to improve the lives of the citizens of the country, not to rape and pillage the rights of people for their own ends. What ends?

Government is two processes - putting in place "stuff" that will grow the economy and improve the lives of its citizens, and on the other hand, reacting - yes it is a reactionary process - to crime and violence in an attempt to curb it for the security of those same citizens.

So if you want to blame someone for the erosion of freedoms, blame those who cause the reaction in the first place. The Government has far better things to spend its time and money on than trying to cope with the stupidity and criminal actions of its citizens.

Also notable is the lack of serious and practical suggestions for doing so by these keyboard warriors.

What a load of twaddle based on the assumption that those that put themselves forward to govern are doing so for the good of everyone in the country. Most are in fact egotistical, lack empathy and/or idealogical and it is up to the people they govern not to just accept without question. Humans have frought long and hard for the right to question those that govern, through kings, priest, lords and oppressive systems. Currently there is a push, using the terrorism as an excuse, to regain control over individuals lives and as much as I hate to say it, Katman is pushing back by questioning what we are told. He may be wrong but he should still have and exercise the right to question.

[Katman]

Currently there is a push, using the terrorism as an excuse, to regain control over individuals lives and as much as I hate to say it, Katman is pushing back by questioning what we are told. He may be wrong but he should still have and exercise the right to question.

Not only is it a basic right to be allowed to question democratic governments but it is also of utmost importance that governments are made acutely aware that not all society is made up of gullible, easily-led fools like Ed.

[Edbear]

Not only is it a basic right to be allowed to question democratic governments but it is also of utmost importance that governments are made acutely aware that not all society is made up of gullible, easily-led fools like Ed.

Oh, the irony, especially in this thread...

[Katman]

Oh, the irony, especially in this thread...

You wouldn't recognise irony if it fucked you up the arse.

[oneofsix]

Not only is it a basic right to be allowed to question democratic governments but it is also of utmost importance that governments are made acutely aware that not all society is made up of gullible, easily-led fools like Ed.

The Oliver Stone history of the USA last night raised the interesting point that most countries don't know the Western free election, and with that the right to question, system. You may say it is a basic human right but how many actually enjoy it. Questioning authority is a basic human condition but only free western style governments tend to even pay lip service to allowing it. The removal of the freedom to question tends to lead, eventually, to revolution.