Ordering a helmet internationally?

[swbarnett]

make your mind up what you're saying, and clearly read what you're quoting in the 1st place
An inate object is exactly what a motorcycle is without a rider at the controls, thats why the quote was "Bikes offer no form of protection by themselves"
You could have an experienced rider on a neglected bike & an inexperienced rider on a brand new perfectly set up bike put them in exactly the same scenario and the results would speak for them selves...I know which I'd be backing

Fair point. Semantics of wording and interpretation. Just trying to say that even a being on a crappy bike is a damn sight safer than being in traffic without a vehicle of any kind (to a point).

And instead of saying "say" I should have put "suggest"

Indeed. Statistics only talk about the "average" rider; they are not a good predictor of the fate of any given individual.

[swbarnett]

Exactly. My big road accident many years ago. ...

Just because you and others you know have had a mojor accident does not mean that we all will. If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow. You guys are just supporting all those car driving zealots that believe motorcycles are too dangerous for public roads.

[swbarnett]

,many many moons ago my cousin was heading back to the Air force base up in Blenheim on her bike,for reasons only known to himself an 83 year old decided to cross the centerline on a 3km long straight,no warning no anything he simply swerved and placed his vehicle into hers...didnt even bother braking.Explain to me what you would have done to avoid the inevitability of that...

Been there, done that. Call it luck if you will but I had the ingrained instinct and just enough road to swerve and accellerate past them.

Also, my wife has me a car on her side of the road overtaking on a tight blind right-hander. Again, the ingrained instinct was present and the verge was used resulting in no accident at all.

Sometimes I wonder why you guys that believe an accident to be inevitable ride at all. Do you get off on the adrenalin?

[Berries]

If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow.

Couldn't agree more. While there is always the possibility that something might happen, and you have to ride and dress appropriately for it, it is not inevitable. If it was bikes would have been banned years ago and my Mum would have been right.

I deal with crashes everyday as part of my job and while the majority of them have some degree of inevitability about them due to the action of one or more parties, the numbers in no way support the position that every rider is going to have a big crash. Come on, if I knew I was going to get badly injured at work at some point I would change jobs, same with my wheels. Shit happens, I lost a close family friend in the exact same scenario that Robert Taylor described, but nothing is inevitable.

Apart from death, taxes and Kiwi nurses so I was always told.

[Robert Taylor]

Just because you and others you know have had a mojor accident does not mean that we all will. If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow. You guys are just supporting all those car driving zealots that believe motorcycles are too dangerous for public roads.

Of course, but Im grateful that I had a suitable level of protection that saved a LOT of gravel rash. AND, also it saved the taxpayer from an even bigger ACC payout.

[swbarnett]

Of course, but Im grateful that I had a suitable level of protection that saved a LOT of gravel rash.

As would I be in similar circumstances.

AND, also it saved the taxpayer from an even bigger ACC payout.

Of this there is no doubt. However, in the current climate it had no affect whatsoever on our levies as they are set for a political agenda, not based on the real cost.

ACC exists to help preserve the many freedoms we hold dear. One of these is our right to decide for ourselves the level of risk that we are willing to accept.

[T.W.R]

Fair point. Semantics of wording and interpretation. Just trying to say that even a being on a crappy bike is a damn sight safer than being in traffic without a vehicle of any kind (to a point).

No you weren't

Indeed. Statistics only talk about the "average" rider; they are not a good predictor of the fate of any given individual.

mmm how do stats & the people gathering the stats decide who is an average rider

Just because you and others you know have had a mojor accident does not mean that we all will. If I believed for a second that a major accident at some point in my riding career was inevitable I'd sell the bike tomorrow. You guys are just supporting all those car driving zealots that believe motorcycles are too dangerous for public roads.

the statistics were gathered from all types of accidents...nothing to do with major accidents Far from supporting tin-tops sunshine, just having the ability to face reality;
And for a fact it doesn't have to be a major accident to kill you.
If you're scared of having an off of any kind then bye bye go take up another past time...FFS people die in their own beds for no reason...doesn't mean we'll give up sleeping in fear of it

Couldn't agree more. While there is always the possibility that something might happen, and you have to ride and dress appropriately for it, it is not inevitable. If it was bikes would have been banned years ago and my Mum would have been right.

I deal with crashes everyday as part of my job and while the majority of them have some degree of inevitability about them due to the action of one or more parties, the numbers in no way support the position that every rider is going to have a big crash. Come on, if I knew I was going to get badly injured at work at some point I would change jobs, same with my wheels. Shit happens, I lost a close family friend in the exact same scenario that Robert Taylor described, but nothing is inevitable.

Apart from death, taxes and Kiwi nurses so I was always told.

As above: there was no part of any of those reports that indicated or pointed towards the gathered data saying "major accidents" period!

Just Accidents thats why they're called accidents..no one can predict them, we can do all we can to minimise the chance of it happening but thats all

Instead of trying to zero in one thing get the whole picture and face reality

[swbarnett]

No you weren't

Yeah, I was actually. Obviously I didn't say it too well.

mmm how do stats & the people gathering the stats decide who is an average rider

They don't. All they can do is produce results based on what was sampled. Hence the "average" rider.

the statistics were gathered from all types of accidents...nothing to do with major accidents Far from supporting tin-tops sunshine, just having the ability to face reality;

It seemed to me that Robert and others were trying to say that all motorcyclists can expect to have a major accident in their riding career at some point. I may have subconsciously inserted the "major" part. My apologies if I did.

The reality is somewhat different. While it is true that most motorcyclist will have some sort of accident at some point (my wife and I certainly fall into this category), it is not true to say that it is inevitable for every rider. There are riders out there that have been riding for decades without having one accident.

And for a fact it doesn't have to be a major accident to kill you.

Doesn't that make it a major accident?

If you're scared of having an off of any kind then bye bye go take up another past time...FFS people die in their own beds for no reason...doesn't mean we'll give up sleeping in fear of it

I quite agree.

While "having an off" is something I certainly try to avoid, I don't live in fear of it. You and I are of like mind when it comes to living in spite of the risks involved.

[Robert Taylor]

To sum up, this thread was about helmets. On evidence of what has been presented within this thread they are clearly not needed !

[swbarnett]

To sum up, this thread was about helmets. On evidence of what has been presented within this thread they are clearly not needed !

That would be pushing it a bit far and assume a knowledge of another's circumstances and principles that none of us posess. I would, however, say that the decision as to whether or not they are "needed" on any given ride should be left up to the individual rider.

[T.W.R]

To sum up, this thread was about helmets. On evidence of what has been presented within this thread they are clearly not needed !

Hey Robert, this is direct from the conclusions section of the report item


Risk Valorization.[21] This is the acceptance that risk is unavoidable but can be embraced by making certain choices, whereby motorcyclists, "reappropriate risk and motorcycling as something which can't be measured only according to utility and efficiency... This discourse doesn't eschew safety in absolute terms, but neither does it maintain the validity of safety as the be-all and end-all for riding."[15] Motorcycling advocate and writer Wendy Moon said that one of the reasons she relaxed her insistence on always wearing a helmet while riding was that she no longer considered it worth "the mental effort required to maintain that protective attitude. I am not free to live in the now because I’m enslaved to the future 'what if.' ...So we gradually distance ourselves from experiencing a full and free life and we don’t even know it. As a society, we’re like kids so bundled up against the snow we cannot move at all.... Embracing that risk rejuvenates the soul and empowers one to live the rest of her life as she wants."[2

But there's this too

Helmet — A full-face helmet provides the most protection. Thirty-five percent of all crashes show major impact on the chin-bar area.[32] However, 3/4- and 1/2-helmets also are available. Some motorcycle training sites[which?] have banned the use of half-helmets because of avoidable injuries sustained by riders wearing them.

[Robert Taylor]

That would be pushing it a bit far and assume a knowledge of another's circumstances and principles that none of us posess. I would, however, say that the decision as to whether or not they are "needed" on any given ride should be left up to the individual rider.

It was a feeble attempt on my part at sarcasm.

[T.W.R]

They don't. All they can do is produce results based on what was sampled. Hence the "average" rider.

In statistics the average is the median figure

The reality is somewhat different. While it is true that most motorcyclist will have some sort of accident at some point (my wife and I certainly fall into this category), it is not true to say that it is inevitable for every rider. There are riders out there that have been riding for decades without having one accident.

Some riders are lucky enough to get away without ever being in the situation where they'll have an accident, doesn't mean to say that their a good or skilled rider because until the put in the situation they don't know how they'll react...basic psychology fight or flight reaction; even very well trained & experienced riders can't say how an event is going unfold until they're in the situation...doing all the right things doesn't always mean the result is going to be what you want.

Myself I've had two good prangs which could have resulted in a fatality, one through my own stupidity of 10ft tall bullet proof teenage enthusiasm and the second where I did all I could to avoid the impact yet still came away with a munted arm that'll be a constant reminder for me for as long as I'm alive

Doesn't that make it a major accident?

Nah that makes it a Fatal accident, falling over & landing wrongly & breaking your neck is a fatal accident but not a major accident, falling 30m of the side of a hill & breaking your pelvis & back is a major accident etc

I quite agree.

While "having an off" is something I certainly try to avoid, I don't live in fear of it. You and I are of like mind when it comes to living in spite of the risks involved.

Ditto, I ride for the enjoyment of the experience it gives, never fearing it but I'm well aware of the risk, take the steps to minimise that risk and respect what the possible consequences are of every action I take.

[swbarnett]

In statistics the average is the median figure

Although they often work out to be the same number they are quite different concepts.

Some riders are lucky enough to get away without ever being in the situation where they'll have an accident, doesn't mean to say that their a good or skilled rider because until the put in the situation they don't know how they'll react...basic psychology fight or flight reaction; even very well trained & experienced riders can't say how an event is going unfold until they're in the situation...

True. One can't really determine if a given individual is a gifted rider or just "lucky".

doing all the right things doesn't always mean the result is going to be what you want.

If the result isn't what you want then you didn't do the right things. Often what works in a given situation is contrary to what is normally considered "right" under the circumstances. For that matter, the very concept of "right" depends very much on the individual's intended outcome.

Nah that makes it a Fatal accident, falling over & landing wrongly & breaking your neck is a fatal accident but not a major accident, falling 30m of the side of a hill & breaking your pelvis & back is a major accident etc

Tomato/Tomato (said with a strong British and American accent respectively). I see what you mean though. Minor accident, major consequence.




Ditto, I ride for the enjoyment of the experience it gives, never fearing it but I'm well aware of the risk, take the steps to minimise that risk and respect what the possible consequences are of every action I take.[/QUOTE]

[yod]

so what was the conclusion?

should we be buying helmets internationally or not?