Ultrabatt lithium batteries

[FastBikeGear]

I don't disagree. But given the other thread, it looks like a dig to me. I have no doubt Liam will deny that of course, he needn't waste his breath.

My job is to educate the market and point out technical differences between products. If another product is lacking features compared to ours we think customers want to know.

It is necessary for customers to understand why a 2nd generation battery might cost more than the earlier 1st gen ones .

They have a right to know what more they are getting for their money.

If I was selling an oven with a built in rotisserie and a competitors doesn't, shouldn't I point this out? or is it unkind or impolite if I do?

And they have every right to say we don't have a inbuilt BMS or rotisserie but of course this is factored into the price or whatever.

It's almost as if you blame me because Shorai doen't have a built in BMS!

Ask Kevin Riley head of Sales/Marketing (sales@shorai.org) at Shorai the question and see why they tell you they don't have a BMS.

For all I know they have a 2nd gen battery about to hit the market. After all only the other day their N.Z. agent said watch this space!

[imdying]

BMS discussion is important; it's critical to a happy Li battery. Even the most basic Li battery needs one to ensure a long happy life. Having said that, with something like an RC battery where weight is critical and recharging is frequent, it's generally in the charger.

[Drew]

BMS discussion is important; it's critical to a happy Li battery. Even the most basic Li battery needs one to ensure a long happy life. Having said that, with something like an RC battery where weight is critical and recharging is frequent, it's generally in the charger.

Phones and the like, I wonder where the BMS is. Can't be the charger since they can mostly be plugged straight into any USB port...My computer predates Li batts so it aint there.

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.

[bogan]

BMS discussion is important; it's critical to a happy Li battery. Even the most basic Li battery needs one to ensure a long happy life. Having said that, with something like an RC battery where weight is critical and recharging is frequent, it's generally in the charger.

Part of an RC's BMS is still in the device with at least an under-voltage cutout being a standard or configurable option.

Phones and the like, I wonder where the BMS is. Can't be the charger since they can mostly be plugged straight into any USB port...My computer predates Li batts so it aint there.

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.

Could be in phone and in external chargers. Could be half and half with the monitoring bits in batt talking to the charger on the phone side, I think that is how laptop batteries do it.

[imdying]

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.

It's basically a question without an answer. Some are in the phone, some in the battery.

Part of an RC's BMS is still in the device with at least an under-voltage cutout being a standard or configurable option.

Quite right, that typically being the most basic function of a BMS.

[FastBikeGear]

Hey just some stuff from Wikipedia and elsewhere for battery junkies.

There are only a handful of different core LiFEPo4 cell technologies in the world (currently)and the patents on these are primarily held by just three companies

A123 Systems http://www.a123systems.com/about-us-locations.htm (American company initially, but recently purchased by Chinese company) plants and offices in US, Germany and China
Phostech http://www.phostechlithium.com/ UCanadian head quarters h plants and offices in China, Japan, Europe, Middle East, North America
Aleees http://www.aleees.com/ (Head office Taiwan and China)

Some smaller companies such as
NTT http://www.ntt.co.jp/inlab/kankyo/en...air/index.html
Valence http://www.valence.com/ also hold some of the less important patents (Brammo, Segway, Mercedes, Renault, Ford, Volvo Isuzu and Peugot are or have been technoogy partners of Valence. Valence are very focused on LiFeMgPO4 bttery chemistry....but are going through some difficulty....

Valence August 21, 2013
We are pleased to advise you that today, August 21, 2013, the Company has filed its Plan of Reorganization and Disclosure Statement with the U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Western District of Texas. As you may recall, in July the Company was granted an extension of its exclusivity period to October 7, 2013, for filing a plan of reorganization and disclosure statement. The Plan calls for the implementation of a financing and reorganization proposal from the Company’s secured lender, Berg & Berg Enterprises, LLC. The Plan includes an infusion of $20 million of new capital, which will be provided through a loan from Berg & Berg to fund the payments to creditors under the Plan and to fund the Company’s working capital needs after exiting from Chapter 11. The Plan of Reorganization and Disclosure Statement are public documents and can be viewed on our website.....

At present according to Wikipedia the root patents of the LFP compounds are held by just the first three material companies I mentioned, A123, Phostech and Aleees.

The key feature of Li1-xMFePO4 from A123 is the nano-LFP, which converts the originally less conductive LFP into commercial products by modification of its physical properties and addition of noble metals in the anode material, as well as the use of special graphite as the cathodes.

The main feature of LiFePO4 from Phostech is the increased capacitance and conductivity by appropriate carbon coating; the crucial feature of LiFePO4 •

zM from Aleees is the LFP with a high capacitance and low impedance obtained by the stable control of the ferrites and crystal growth. This improved control is realized by applying strong mechanical stirring forces to the precursors in high oversaturation states, which induces crystallization of the metal oxides and LFP.

They also license their technology and cell raw treated Lithium to companies such as China BAK inc and Tianjin Lishen Battery co Ltd. (http://en.lishen.com.cn/) who are two of the largest LiFEPo4 cell manufacturers in the world. Lishen make both prismatic cells and cylindrical cells. Most of these companies production is in mainland China I suspect because of labour costs.

The patent wars are ongoing with many companies trying to circumvent the patents held by the big three. NTT had to pay the Univeristy of Texas 30 million dollars in 2008 (University of Texas invented the LiMPo4 battery in 1996). NTT also holds some patents on a variation of LiFePO4 chemistry, AyMPO4 has higher capacity than LiFeP04. A is for alkali metal and M for the combination of Co and Fe.

Some of the above companies such have gone through tumultuous financial times, e.g Valence and A123 Systems, the investments made and the risks taken have been massive and the expected growth rate of EVs (Electrical Vehicles) has fallen well behind production capacity, Which means the cost of the raw cells has fluctuated a lot.

The continued R&D effort by all of these companies is massive because of the humungus size of the prize at stake.
Research continues, substituting other metals for the iron or lithium in LiFePO4 has been shown to improve efficiency. Magnesium, titanium, manganese, zirconium and zinc are some of the materials that have been and are being experimented with. There is a lot of research going into the physical structure of the anodes and cathodes and the word nano is cropping up quite a bit.

Most of the battery manufacturers are very secretive who they make their cells for and most Lithium battery manufactures won't reveal where they buy their cells from. Ultrabatt's previous generation cells were made by A123 Systems. Lishen do disclose that they manufacture for, Apple, Samsung, Motorola, LG, Dell, HP, Nokia, TTI, SBDK, Valence, Vodafone and domestic industry leaders, such as Lenovo, Huawei, ZTE, and of course they have many other customers who are not disclosed for commercial sensitivity reasons. Companies like Shorai and Ultrabatt do not invent, design or make their own cells.

This means that each time another small refinement in cell chemistry or technology comes along, they can simply switch to another supplier to take advantages of the features, performance or reliability characteristics they deem most desirable.

The cell technology is evolving as fast the as the Battery Management System technology.
The combined investment in both technologies in this year alone will be close to billion dollars.

It's very likely that the batteries in the bike you buy in 5 to 10 year times won't be used for starting a petrol engine.

[avgas]

Phones and the like, I wonder where the BMS is. Can't be the charger since they can mostly be plugged straight into any USB port...My computer predates Li batts so it aint there.

Could be in the phone, but some batteries can be taken out and charged externally, so it must be internal of the battery I suppose. Must be tiny.

Li-Ion have over-charge protection on the battery. In fact is is very difficult to overcharge one. Chuck some Li-Ion AA's in a battery charger and they won't explode for months.
The rest of the BMS is built into whatever is controller. Also the level of the BMS varies. Android phones actually have some BMS as a part of the OS interfacing with the PMS as a feedback.

FYI watch out for charging chips - I just had one for solar charging. Put smartcharger on it, seemed to only "trickle charge" until battery died. Put smartcharger straight on to the batt - went to full charge. Not only that charging chip showed charge voltage as similar to batt, and I had 6.5V on charge terminals (with nothing connected). So seems that engineer assume charging chip was full works - but actually I have massive transient current going the chip.

[Drew]

FYI watch out for charging chips - I just had one for solar charging. Put smartcharger on it, seemed to only "trickle charge" until battery died. Put smartcharger straight on to the batt - went to full charge. Not only that charging chip showed charge voltage as similar to batt, and I had 6.5V on charge terminals (with nothing connected). So seems that engineer assume charging chip was full works - but actually I have massive transient current going the chip.

Yip, that went completely over my head at a million miles an hour.

[avgas]

After all only the other day their N.Z. agent said watch this space!

Three words.

Aprilia New Zealand

Shorai are not likely to change that easily. I may be surprised. But usually I am not.

[avgas]

Yip, that went completely over my head at a million miles an hour.

Ok simple motto.

Just because they tell you all the circuitry is in a chip.........doesn't mean it is.

If people tell you they have a BMS - ask them what SPECIFICALLY they have. Black Box theory.

e.g. did suzuki S.R.A.M. do jack shit for the performance of the bike? Will this BMS do jack shit for the battery?

[Drew]

Ok simple motto.

Just because they tell you all the circuitry is in a chip.........doesn't mean it is.

If people tell you they have a BMS - ask them what SPECIFICALLY they have. Black Box theory.

e.g. did suzuki S.R.A.M. do jack shit for the performance of the bike? Will this BMS do jack shit for the battery?

Ah, gotcha...

And it's S.R.A.D you fucken heathen, weather it worked or not!

[FastBikeGear]

Ok simple motto.

Just because they tell you all the circuitry is in a chip.........doesn't mean it is.

If people tell you they have a BMS - ask them what SPECIFICALLY they have. Black Box theory.

e.g. did suzuki S.R.A.M. do jack shit for the performance of the bike? Will this BMS do jack shit for the battery?

Good question and good point not all BMS systems do, or need to do the same thing. Best functionality depends on applications and depend on the cells used.

This is a good time to reiterate the functionality of the BMS in the new batteries will be different and will again be detailed on our web site.


Firstly what our BMS does is described in the product details on our web site. (The IP of how it does this is obviously not).

Consumers have protection under the NZ Consumers Guarantee Act which is one of the best bits of legislation we have in NZ. Whoever wrote that needs a medal!

Does the BMS do what it says it does on the can? (Well again you have the protection of the Consumers Guarantee Act).

But how do we know it is actually working....Well of course you can test it but it's hard to do that before you buy it.

So whats the evidence so far....

Well two blown protection circuits (Two fuses that had to be replaced back at the factory) and one damaged battery ....so far...so what....we have only been selling them for two years!

If you or I had purchased a bunch of cells on line, strapped them together, soldered or screwed some connections between them, threw in an appropriately sized fuse, shrink wrapped them with some heat shrink and attached some battery terminal lugs at each end and sold a few hundred of them we could probably have achieved nearly as good MTBF results within the first 2 years. In fact that is exactly how one of the vendor got into business before they had some really nice plastic cases made up (no it wasn't Shorai).

However the real picture will only begin to emerge after 5 years on the market...and that's why it's a difficult sale to get customers to pay more for a battery with a BMS in it at this stage.

Imagine if you bought a hybrid car from Toyota and Tesla and you had to replace the battery after 3 or 4 years of ownership!
We can be fairly confident a BMS is a good idea because electric car makers have been using them for years and the engineers all say they are a good idea but can we trust these engineers...maybe they are just creating a job for themselves?


The BMS and protection circuitry is all about the extending the life of the battery and minimising customers cost of ownership, if it doesn't do that then the BMS has failed to do it's job. No ifs or buts.

If the microprocessor controlled BMS does extend the life of the battery by several years, and it hasn't cost you too much of a premium, then you come out financially ahead.

If you didn't pay a premium for the BMS then you can't lose.

I just can't make it more complicated than that.




Many thanks for the question and the opportunity to detail this.

[Edbear]

Ah, gotcha...

And it's S.R.A.D you fucken heathen, weather it worked or not!

It's "whether"...

[avgas]

The BMS and protection circuitry is all about the extending the life of the battery and minimising customers cost of ownership, if it doesn't do that then the BMS has failed to do it's job. No ifs or buts.
If the microprocessor controlled BMS does extend the life of the battery by several years, and it hasn't cost you too much of a premium, then you come out financially ahead.
If you didn't pay a premium for the BMS then you can't lose.
I just can't make it more complicated than that.

I can
But probably just leave it at that. What you have said in the first part is correct. But when it does ONLY that you need to consider how it would react in a system that was never designed for it.

But I have faith that all the manufacturers out there know what they are doing. I just wish we talked about what that is specifically.
The batteries themselves could be made of mud for all I care - I am just concerned that under certain parameters things react differently. All LiPo manufacturers need to understand this. As vehicles are not designed around a LiPo battery - lets hope the battery is designed around the vehicle.

[avgas]

I probably should point out I am not a LiPo salesperson. So its not my job to convince people how great these things are. So lets see others come up with a features list.

Laziness on my part - but I can't be fucked. Sealed Lead Acids working for me currently. See no evidence for me to change yet. Salesman job is to convince me otherwise.