Race bikes and rider aids (electronic)

[slowpoke]

The physical electronics themselves aren't a big factor in the costs, it's the army of technicians and engineers who analyse,model, monitor, run simulations etc etc etc etc. The staff required to do this is huge, their expertise extreme, so the wage bill is "messiff", the cost of transporting/feeding/accommodating many of them as they globe trote around the world is ginormous, for what is effectively a niche sport that doesn't even make it on to mainstream television.

There's some argument for the trickle down to road bikes but some of it is just ridiculous: we're never going to see a bike adjusting it's fuelling or throttle response corner by corner via GPS co-ordinates and carefully measured contours and coefficient of friction measurements are we? But the cost to do so, and maximise the benefits, is enormous. Carbon brakes and pneumatic valves can be added to the "no practical application" list. And can anyone tell me off the top of their head they bought a 180hp sports bike because it's the most fuel efficient? You sad bastard.........

If they were serious about trickle down to road bikes why isn't ABS would be allowed? Why aren't catalytic converters compulsory? Along with ferrous brake rotors? Why aren't dB limits imposed? These things are becoming more and more important/contentious to governing bodies....and even racing bodies for that matter, so why aren't they important to the manufacturers?

[Robert Taylor]

The physical electronics themselves aren't a big factor in the costs, it's the army of technicians and engineers who analyse,model, monitor, run simulations etc etc etc etc. The staff required to do this is huge, their expertise extreme, so the wage bill is "messiff", the cost of transporting/feeding/accommodating many of them as they globe trote around the world is ginormous, for what is effectively a niche sport that doesn't even make it on to mainstream television.

There's some argument for the trickle down to road bikes but some of it is just ridiculous: we're never going to see a bike adjusting it's fuelling or throttle response corner by corner via GPS co-ordinates and carefully measured contours and coefficient of friction measurements are we? But the cost to do so, and maximise the benefits, is enormous. Carbon brakes and pneumatic valves can be added to the "no practical application" list. And can anyone tell me off the top of their head they bought a 180hp sports bike because it's the most fuel efficient? You sad bastard.........

If they were serious about trickle down to road bikes why isn't ABS would be allowed? Why aren't catalytic converters compulsory? Along with ferrous brake rotors? Why aren't dB limits imposed? These things are becoming more and more important/contentious to governing bodies....and even racing bodies for that matter, so why aren't they important to the manufacturers?

Energy recovery technology developed in Formula 1 car racing is already trickling down into passenger cars. If only a percentage of the technology makes it ''to the masses'' then its worth it. Look at the cats in Americas cup yachting. Sure the ability of the sailors is still a huge factor but the technology is awe inspiring and its a huge spectacle. The boat that was supposed to be winning ( because the arrogant prick that owns it writes the biggest cheques ) is being embarrassed. That's also a testament to engineering ability and sheer hard work.

We are now selling upgrade suspension control units for Multistradas with the Ohlins electronic suspension. This turns the suspension action into active or automatic if you like. It self adjusts on the fly. The price is very affordable and there are lots of happy punters. Again, this is trickle down from the racing world.

[pritch]

Look at the cats in Americas cup yachting. .

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

A motorcycle though is not the natural environment for electronic wizardry. Environmental hazards such as vibration and water mean that problems are likely to eventuate. Not so much if, as when.

One mutual acquaintance told me that in years past his Cortina had a lever and a piece of wire to adjust the seat. Now his BMW has seven electric motors (and probably an inbuilt heater). All of which is wonderful when new but later on??? Electrickery on a bike will likely be even less reliable in the long term.

There speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap. Generally none of this stuff is servicable either, it requires replacement at a cost of mega bucks. Seemingly there is still something to be said for simplicity.

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling - and anybody with a lisp.

[RobGassit]

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

There speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap!

I too had trouble with a black box and she was worth every penny!

[Dave-]

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

A motorcycle though is not the natural environment for electronic wizardry. Environmental hazards such as vibration and water mean that problems are likely to eventuate. Not so much if, as when.

One mutual acquaintance told me that in years past his Cortina had a lever and a piece of wire to adjust the seat. Now his BMW has seven electric motors (and probably an inbuilt heater). All of which is wonderful when new but later on??? Electrickery on a bike will likely be even less reliable in the long term.

There speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap. Generally none of this stuff is servicable either, it requires replacement at a cost of mega bucks. Seemingly there is still something to be said for simplicity.

With apologies to Rudyard Kipling - and anybody with a lisp.

Nah bullshit, they've put vibrations in some pretty wet places.

[Robert Taylor]

Absolutely agree regarding the boats. Obscenely expensive but truly awe inspiring in a stiff beeze.

A motorcycle though is not the natural environment for electronic wizardry. Exposure to vibration and water mean that problems are likely to eventuate sooner rather than later
.
One mutual acquaintance told me that in years past his Cortina had a lever and a piece of wire to adjust the seat. Now his BMW has seven electric motors (and probably an inbuilt heater). All of which is wonderful when new but later on??? Electrickery on a bike will likely be even less reliable in the long term.

And there speaks the voice of sad experience. I had to replace the "black box" on a BMW four and those don't come cheap. Generally none of this stuff is servicable, it requires replacement at a cost of mega bucks. Seemingly there is still something to be said for simplicity.

Yes I do understand where you are coming from Pritch and largely Im from the same analogue age as you. But electronics are here to stay and there is a place for them. Bikes are a ''harsh'' application but so are military aircraft. Military spec componentry just has to be used.
The biggest issue that I see is that too many components go to the PCD department prior to committing to full scale production.
There are also too many middlemen ''clipping the ticket'' on the way through with such componentry, ballooning the end price somewhat.

[Drew]

I'd bloody love traction control on the sidecar. The non sensor type such as Bazzaz would be great, so it will let it light up a bit and then reduce power output. Since it's beneficial to lose drive traction through and exiting left hand turns.

ABS wouldn't be ideal though, as it's good to lose traction on chair and drive wheels on the way into a right hand turn. Particularly the slower ones.

[slowpoke]

Energy recovery technology developed in Formula 1 car racing is already trickling down into passenger cars. If only a percentage of the technology makes it ''to the masses'' then its worth it. Look at the cats in Americas cup yachting. Sure the ability of the sailors is still a huge factor but the technology is awe inspiring and its a huge spectacle. The boat that was supposed to be winning ( because the arrogant prick that owns it writes the biggest cheques ) is being embarrassed. That's also a testament to engineering ability and sheer hard work.

I dunno Robert, to me the America's cup is a very bad example: most competitors have been priced out of the game. It's new and exciting (compared to the old sluggers) at the moment but how long are people going to watch just 2 or 3 boats? The Kiwi boat is sponsored by us, the tax payer: it doesn't look like we will but if we lose that won't happen again. The Italians wouldn't go through it again, so who does that leave? There's virtually no TV coverage so the whole show is completely unsustainable when the billionaires get bored.

Parallels to MotoGP much? Suzuki and Kawasaki have been priced out of the market and Ducati won't be far behind if they have another disastrous season next year and get smoked by the customer Honda and Yamaha arrangements. The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

[Dave-]

I'd bloody love traction control on the sidecar. The non sensor type such as Bazzaz would be great, so it will let it light up a bit and then reduce power output. Since it's beneficial to lose drive traction through and exiting left hand turns.

ABS wouldn't be ideal though, as it's good to lose traction on chair and drive wheels on the way into a right hand turn. Particularly the slower ones.

Could you not bias the ABS based on steering angle?

[Dave-]

The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

Ideally it shouldn't though, the tech should be the reason you're there. Ideally the teams should be prototyping new advancements to go on their production fleet.

I think rather than try reduce the costs of prototype racing, they should be trying to focus it more on production development by somehow forcing comapnies to follow through with the technology and putting it into a production vehicle. F1 has gone too far with tech taking a back seat to the health of the series with its latest tyre debacle.

I realise somehow is very open ended, but I'm still not dressed so refuse to give it too much through right now.

[Robert Taylor]

I'd bloody love traction control on the sidecar. The non sensor type such as Bazzaz would be great, so it will let it light up a bit and then reduce power output. Since it's beneficial to lose drive traction through and exiting left hand turns.

ABS wouldn't be ideal though, as it's good to lose traction on chair and drive wheels on the way into a right hand turn. Particularly the slower ones.

Apologies for stating the obvious, why not first work on trying to improve traction levels through having more responsive suspension?

[Drew]

Apologies for stating the obvious, why not first work on trying to improve traction levels through having more responsive suspension?

We're nearly at the stage of you and I working on that Dr, but it would still help.

Currently, the rear is border line under sprung. Which is good when you're dealing with something as inherently unstable as a chair anyway, and grip is the biggest factor no matter what you're doing.

Thinking about it though, traction control would be a bit of a drag exiting right hand turns. Since ya don't want it to push the front too hard.

Fuck it, too much thinking.

Email on the way actually, about the front end.

[Mental Trousers]

The tech trickling down has to take a back seat to the overall health of the series.

Ideally it shouldn't though, the tech should be the reason you're there. Ideally the teams should be prototyping new advancements to go on their production fleet.

The technology is the reason prototype classes exist, but I don't think production based racing is the place to develop new technology.

[Robert Taylor]

The technology is the reason prototype classes exist, but I don't think production based racing is the place to develop new technology.

Sorry about that but I don't agree for one second! We developed something last year in NZ ''production racing'' ( which is largely what it is here, production based ) and passed the info on to the engineers at the Ohlins factory. It is now being used in a number of Moto 2 and second tier ( CRT ) MotoGP bikes. As Ohlins have the engineering capacity and some pretty sophisticated equipment it will be refined and developed further. From that same idea we have applied to a couple of roadbikes more recently, with excellent results.

Within the rules you keep developing, that's the nature of engineering. If there is a spin off for the average man in the street then that's a bonus

[Robert Taylor]

We're nearly at the stage of you and I working on that Dr, but it would still help.

Currently, the rear is border line under sprung. Which is good when you're dealing with something as inherently unstable as a chair anyway, and grip is the biggest factor no matter what you're doing.

Thinking about it though, traction control would be a bit of a drag exiting right hand turns. Since ya don't want it to push the front too hard.

Fuck it, too much thinking.

Email on the way actually, about the front end.

Plus you've got a wheel missing! No caveman if you gave him paper and pencil would design such a hideous piece of engineering.