Lawyer advocating 10% less jail sentence for Maori

[Banditbandit]

That's not the whole story though is it... chances are high that the Maori woman has prior offences.

They both had prior convictons .. I was a court reporter - both women came up on the same day - and recieved different treatment ..

[SMOKEU]

There may be a fact in what you said, but then there's this huge leap/assumption which really just shows your mindset rather than anything factual. Besides, I thought you were fairly open about being a white supremacist?

He is saying that whatever causes that, it's not genetic, which appears to be a fair argument. Given that genetics being responsible is your argument, it's up to you to prove it, not for him to refute it. I'm not a geneticist, so I don't have an opinion. I think rustyrobot highlighted the flaw in your statement.

Maori have more opportunities for success and support than any other racial group in NZ, yet they still manage to fuck up their lives and end up in jail at an exponentially higher rate than non Maori. All other things remaining equal, this is proof that Maori are more genetically predisposed to crime than non Maori in NZ. If it's not genetic, then what is it, a mere coincidence?

That's a complicated answer ...

Firstly, because lower socio-economic groups (poor people) are over represetrned in prison populations .. Māori make up a good chunk of our lower socio-economic groups .. so do poor people have a pre-disposition to commit crimes??? I think not ...

Secondly, it's a consequence of colonization - across the world colonized people are over represetned in prison populations ... that does not excuee the bahavoir - and crime needs to be punished - but the long term social solutions to crime should be different ...

Now I wil not use either of those factors to argue for more lenient treatment for Māori in the courts ... crime is crime and should be punished ... but the court system is not a level playing field for Māori ...

Studies like QUince's 1999 work are easy to find

THis does not mean that Maotri commit more crimes - it means that, having been caught by police doing something wrong they are more likely to be charegd than a non-Māori person .. and having been charged are more likelyt to be convicted than a non-Māori person ...

It means the police are less inclined to issue a warning, or offer diversion .. why ???
It means that a jury is more likely to view a Māori person as guilty than a non-Māōri person ... Why?? Jury seats are filled with racist shitheads like you or something ??

Why ??? Why are Māori more likely to get a custodial sentence than non-Māri ???

Why should not Māōri get home detention - like the rest of the population??? Why do we get jailed instead of fined - fined like the non-Māori ???

It sure looks like a racist system to me ...

So, I am not defending Maori crime .. it occurs and it needs to be punished - But don't quote stats at me to show Maori are more likely to be criminals than non-Maori - the stats actually show the system is racist and favours non-Māōri ...

I don't believe the justice system in NZ is racist enough to treat Maori worse than other racial groups based purely on their race, and not other factors such as a history of previous criminal offending which will factor into the decision to press charges, grant/deny bail or a term of imprisonment.

If the only difference between the races was skin colour and minor variations in body size and shape, and if people really are all the same regardless of race, then there wouldn't be any noticeable difference in the rate of criminal offending between the races since Maori have been living under "our" system for many generations and are well accustomed to living in "our" society with "our" rules.

[Banditbandit]

Maori have more opportunities for success and support than any other racial group in NZ, yet they still manage to fuck up their lives and end up in jail at an exponentially higher rate than non Maori. All other things remaining equal, this is proof that Maori are more genetically predisposed to crime than non Maori in NZ. If it's not genetic, then what is it, a mere coincidence?

So - you say "more opportunities" .. Name them - show them - be specific - where's your evidence ???

I don't believe the justice system in NZ is racist enough to treat Maori worse than other racial groups based purely on their race, and not other factors such as a history of previous criminal offending which will factor into the decision to press charges, grant/deny bail or a term of imprisonment.

You deny the evidence collected and presented???

If the only difference between the races was skin colour and minor variations in body size and shape, and if people really are all the same regardless of race,

No ifs or buts .. they are all the same ...

then there wouldn't be any noticeable difference in the rate of criminal offending between the races

Yes ... that is totally true - so the reasons for the differences can't be genetic ... you argue my case for me ... no, there SHOULD not be any difference ... but the system itself is biased against Māori .. you can deny it all you like, but your own arguments lead in that direction ...

since Maori have been living under "our" system for many generations and are well accustomed to living in "our" society with "our" rules.

That's somewehat ironic coming from an immigrant such as yourself ...

[Shadowjack]

Like it or not, it would seem the lawyer was simply doing what he could to do the best he could for his client.
And, sadly, given a platform for the so-called "white""supremacist" amongst us to have another wee ranty...

[imdying]

Maori have more opportunities for success and support than any other racial group in NZ, yet they still manage to fuck up their lives and end up in jail at an exponentially higher rate than non Maori.

All other things remaining equal, this is proof that Maori are more genetically predisposed to crime than non Maori in NZ.

Plenty of other people from all races manage to fuck their shit up. That would indicate that whatever the chief mitigating factors are, genetics isn't one of them... or at least if it were a gene, it's a gene common to all races.

If it's not genetic, then what is it, a mere coincidence?

Banditbandit has given a few examples of what other things are likely to be the primary drivers.

[imdying]

So - you say "more opportunities" .. Name them - show them - be specific - where's your evidence ???

He could start with their own scholarships and national sports teams.

[SMOKEU]

So - you say "more opportunities" .. Name them - show them - be specific - where's your evidence ???

You deny the evidence collected and presented???

No ifs or buts .. they are all the same ...

Yes ... that is totally true - so the reasons for the differences can't be genetic ... you argue my case for me ... no, there SHOULD not be any difference ... but the system itself is biased against Māōri .. you can deny it all you like, but your own argumetns lead in that direction ...

That's somewehat ironic coming from an immigrant such as yourself ...

1. As I've already said, throughout my school and tertiary education in NZ, there has been extra support targeted purely at Maori students. Things like extra student support, counselling, tutoring, cultural groups etc. I have not seen the same for any other racial groups.

2. I don't make the rules. If the system is really that racist, then you're talking to the wrong person about it.

3. There are obvious differences between the races. Body size and shape differs notably between the races meaning that we're not all physically the same.

4. All I've heard so far is excuses, and no one has yet been able to show me any convicing proof to state why Maori are involved in such higher levels of crime than non Maori. Since all other things remain equal (education, healthcare, etc), then the differences must be genetic. If Maori were discriminated against in the way that blacks were treated under Apartheid, then there would be justification for the higher crime rate, but since they're treated the same as ever other person (if not better) in a legal sense there shouldn't be any meaningful difference in crime per capita if genetics weren't a factor.

I've done a quick Google search on Maori child abuse. It seems like they beat their children at a disproportinately higher rate than non Maori too.

Note how in my post I haven't done a "Maori vs whites" comparison. I've chosen to compare Maori with "non Maori" in order to get a less "racist" comparison by involving other racial groups in NZ as well.

[SMOKEU]

Plenty of other people from all races manage to fuck their shit up. That would indicate that whatever the chief mitigating factors are, genetics isn't one of them... or at least if it were a gene, it's a gene common to all races.

I have met many highly successful and intelligent Maori people, and many stupid white criminals who should be imprisoned for the rest of their meaningless lives. I never said that all Maoris are criminals, or that all whites are honest people. I was merely pointing out the fact that statistically, Maoris are imprisoned at an exponentially higher rate than non Maori per capita.

[imdying]

4. All I've heard so far is excuses, and no one has yet been able to show me any convicing proof to state why Maori are involved in such higher levels of crime than non Maori. Since all other things remain equal (education, healthcare, etc), then the differences must be genetic.

They do not though. If I was sick as a child, my mother would take me to the doctor... she could easily afford time off work, and transportation to and from. That is not the reality for lower socio-economic house holds. Although things change, and generally improve, the truth is still that the only equality that exists in some of these sectors is availability, but not access. Or rather, just because there is a doctor down the road, does not mean that mum can afford the time off to take you there, or could afford to pay for the visit even if she could, and many other such variations on that theme...

If you are poor, and you have a hand me down school uniform, maybe out of date in some areas, instantly you are 'different' at the school, and you know how children treat things that are different... That puts you on the back foot, which cannot help but to affect your ability to learn. And so the cycle repeats.

[imdying]

I was merely pointing out the fact that statistically, Maoris are imprisoned at an exponentially higher rate than non Maori per capita.

No you were not; that is not in dispute. You said that that happened because of genetics, a statement to which you can provide no evidence to support.

[SMOKEU]

They do not though. If I was sick as a child, my mother would take me to the doctor... she could easily afford time off work, and transportation to and from. That is not the reality for lower socio-economic house holds. Although things change, and generally improve, the truth is still that the only equality that exists in some of these sectors is availability, but not access. Or rather, just because there is a doctor down the road, does not mean that mum can afford the time off to take you there, or could afford to pay for the visit even if she could, and many other such variations on that theme...

If you are poor, and you have a hand me down school uniform, maybe out of date in some areas, instantly you are 'different' at the school, and you know how children treat things that are different... That puts you on the back foot, which cannot help but to affect your ability to learn. And so the cycle repeats.

Those are some very valid points, assuming that Maori = poor. They could go out and get an education to make something of themselves, in the same way that non Maori in NZ frequently do. I do also understand that the poverty cycle can be extremely hard to break out of, but I don't see why that should be any more difficult for a Maori than a non Maori being brought up in a similarly financially disadvanted background.

No you were not; that is not in dispute. You said that that happened because of genetics, a statement to which you can provide no evidence to support.

I'm looking at all relevant factors I can think of, then looking at what's different between Maori and non Maori. The only difference I can find so far is genetic/racial.

[jahrasti]

And this ...




Yes - I agree. There should be a level playing field ...

When I see two women charged with shoplifting minor items from Countdown (two separate instances) and one goes to jail and the other gets a fine ... and it's the M��ri one that goes to jail ..

Tell me how that shows a level playing field ??

When a M�ori group challenges the question of ownership through the courts and the courts say "Interesting question - let's run it through the legal system" and the Government says "Can't have that" and pass laws denying that M�ori group their day in court -

Tell me how that is a level playing field ...

White people's law favours white people

Capitalist law favours capitalists ...

Yes, do the crime - do the time .. but don't tell me the law favours M�ori .. it so demonstratably does not ...

This is very interesting, you state that the Maori female is incarcerated and the European female not. Both of whom had previous convictions and were given different sentences based on race.

Well I ask what previous convictions. To use this statement you must be aware of the number of previous convictions. Did both females have the same conviction history? How do you know, as a reporter I would be surprised if you were given a copy of previous convictions.

If I go against the norm and surmise that the European female had 10 previous convictions and the Maori female three previous and the outcome is as you put it then the sentencing is disproportionate to the offending and grounds for an appeal. Remember that was an example.

Then I move onto IF both females were the same in every respect, why wasnt a fine considered? Maybe both females had been given fines for their last offending, they both earn the same and have the same outgoings. The Maori female (for example) CHOOSES not to pay her fine but the European female CHOOSES to pay hers. If this example were true should they both be given the opportunity for a fine?

Also were the females also currently charged with other offences? It just intrigues me that you have chosen this example. The charge simpliciter carries a MAXIMUM of three months imprisonment.

If you want to throw accusations around I know of a Youth Court judge who is disproportionately softer to young Maori offenders. No I cant offer examples as my work life and my keyboard warrior life need to remain in two different plains.

As for who I think that the law favours, well I think its the peeps that are in court everyday (not the offenders) who win in the Justice system.

[bogan]

You said that that happened because of genetics, a statement to which you can provide no evidence to support.

Gotta be careful with the genetics calls, hard to know where you own lie

[Zedder]

No, I'm not surprised - but he does represent a significant body of opinion on this forum and in our country - it is to that totality that I address my responses .. in the hope of at least affecting a small change in attitude ...

Good on you for trying to change things however, the "significant body of opinion..." could do with some data to support it.

[imdying]

but I don't see why that should be any more difficult for a Maori than a non Maori being brought up in a similarly financially disadvanted background.

It's probably not, thus why there is plenty of 'white trash' in New Zealand with similar problems. Go drive down to Hampshire street... they're not all brown faces you see.

I'm looking at all relevant factors I can think of, then looking at what's different between Maori and non Maori. The only difference I can find so far is genetic/racial.

Your lack of depth of knowledge on the topic should encourage you not to draw conclusions, rather than push you in any particular direction.

For example: I do not know why Jews all have big noses, but for me to decide that it must be because they have too much money, just isn't illogical.