Godzone falling in the international education ratings

[Ocean1]

Meh. If they won't listen and won't perform... then what?

Nobody owes you a living. Tell your kids to produce something worthwhile or go hungry.

Tsk, you get what you are willing to pay for?

And when you get what you earn you'll see some improvement in the decline in performance of most aspects of society.

[mashman]

Nobody owes you a living. Tell your kids to produce something worthwhile or go hungry.

And when you get what you earn you'll see some improvement in the decline in performance of most aspects of society.

Yes they do if a living leads to a better life. I will teach my kids: "Try not to become women of success, but rather try to become women of value" Einstein.

Fucked if I can make head nor tail out of that last line.

[Ocean1]

Yes they do if a living leads to a better life.

So not only does somebody owe you a living it has to be a really really good one?

I will teach my kids: "Try not to become women of success, but rather try to become women of value" Einstein.

What is success if not the product of value?

Fucked if I can make head nor tail out of that last line.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. It means that when your standard of living is dependant on your own personal performance then there's nobody else to blame if it's not quite up to your expectations.

As oposed to the continual bitching from you about how it's nobody's fault they haven't got a job, that the economy actually needs people on the dole and any number of patently absurd notions that absolve any individual from any responsibility for his lack of performance.

[mashman]

So not only does somebody owe you a living it has to be a really really good one?

If you are going to limit an individuals standard of living by setting a ceiling on how much they can earn, then absolutely.

What is success if not the product of value?

Success is achievement, be it positive or negative, and that success may have absolutely no value at all, it could simply be learning to tie your shoelaces.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. It means that when your standard of living is dependant on your own personal performance then there's nobody else to blame if it's not quite up to your expatations.

As oposed to the continual bitching from you about how it's nobody's fault they haven't got a job, that the economy actually needs people on the dole and any number of patently absurd notions that absolve any individual from any responsibility for his lack of performance.

what utter horseshit.

Even more horseshit. The facts are simple, so you should be able to grasp them. Read up on Full Employment v's Hyperinflation (or any employment v inflationary articles) and then explain to me again how absurd the notion is. Til then, get yer fuckin glasses cleaned ya myopic fucknugget.

[BoristheBiter]

Success is achievement, be it positive or negative, and that success may have absolutely no value at all, it could simply be learning to tie your shoelaces.

.

So there is no value in being able to tie your own shoelace?

[BoristheBiter]

There's a quantifiable difference in performance across cultures in NZ. Same teachers. Same syllabus.

There's a quantifiable difference in performance between generations in NZ. Same measuring stick.

Common variables? Parents who have actually lived with the natural consequences of any lack of individual performance, at school and at work. It's a life-changing experience. Our children need that lesson more than any other.

In some cases. if you had a shit teacher you learned nothing or had no wanting to learn.

As they say them that can do, them that can't teach.

[Ocean1]

If you are going to limit an individuals standard of living by setting a ceiling on how much they can earn,

The only practical limit on what anyone's hard work can earn them is the exponential taxation of income.

then absolutely.

Oh cool. Let's all sit around in a circle and wait for someone else provide the lunch. You genuinely can't see a problem with that, can you?

Success is achievement, be it positive or negative, and that success may have absolutely no value at all, it could simply be learning to tie your shoelaces.

Yeah, see, when you rely on wee gems like "negative achievement is the definition of success" as the foundation for your concept of productivity then it's no wonder you come up with such uniquely profound drivel.

what utter horseshit.

Oh I know you don't agree that you should be responsible for your own success, you've said nothing else since you first arrived here, it's always someone else's fault.

Even more horseshit. The facts are simple, so you should be able to grasp them. Read up on Full Employment v's Hyperinflation (or any employment v inflationary articles) and then explain to me again how absurd the notion is. Til then, get yer fuckin glasses cleaned ya myopic fucknugget.

Yeah, yeah, someone else's fault again. You've found a relationship between inflation and employment and you automatically leap on the assumption that one causes the other. Prove it.

You simply can't admit that each of us is responsible for our own success, it would mean that your failures would be your fault, and that's just too much to bear.

[Zedder]

In some cases. if you had a shit teacher you learned nothing or had no wanting to learn.

As they say them that can do, them that can't teach.

Yeah, but that quote has been changed from Sir George Bernard Shaws original "He who can does, he who cannot teaches " and apparently is meant to refer to physical versus intellectual ability.

As far as shit teachers versus not wanting to learn etc, there's more to it like pupil to teacher ratios, funding, using remedial learning groups etc.

[Banditbandit]

Oh fuck off is it. Success isn't celebrated and failure isn't mentioned. If we were to be truthful we'd re-name the whole shebang the Indoctrination System, it's designed to turn out unthinking, compliant, PAYE ballot box fodder.

Once upon a time it was used to try to suppress the Maori language, now the wheel has turned and it's used to glorify anything that's *not* Anglo-Saxon in origin. The last thing that our take-it-in-turns political "elite" want is actual freethinkers trained to use their intelligence to the maximum.

Education has always been about turning out compliant unthinking workers who vote appropriately ... this was being said of the education system of the 1950-s and 60s ...

I still blame the teachers.

we had good ones that taught you because they were passionate about it, to others it was just a job and they didn't care as they got paid either way.

If teachers are required to give the kids compulsory testing every three weeks to see how much they have improved since the last test (three weeks ago) how much time do you think they spend actually teaching?

There's a quantifiable difference in performance across cultures in NZ. Same teachers. Same syllabus.

There's a quantifiable difference in performance between generations in NZ. Same measuring stick.

Common variables? Parents who have actually lived with the natural consequences of any lack of individual performance, at school and at work. It's a life-changing experience. Our children need that lesson more than any other.

Yes - parents need to value education before they wil make their children participate ..

But why do you think "Same Teachers Same curriculum" produces measurable differences between cultures and between generations. Surely same subject, different curriculum might produce better results for those who are left out? It migfht stop them feeling alienated for a start ... then they might choose to participate

So there is no value in being able to tie your own shoelace?

Not if you live in jandals ... (sorry, I could not resist that one - and yes, I do live in jandals when I'm not wearing motorcycle boots - which are not lace up either)

But seriously, you make a serious point ... the curricullum needs to fit the modern world - I was taught to write with a fountain pen - then along came biros etc and now I almosty never use a pen - I use a keyboard.

I am hopeless at arithmetic - 2 + 2 = 4 anything else I use a calculator ... I was told at school I woud never amount to much unless I coud add subtract multiple and divide .. well bugger me . I did amount to something and I have a calculator sitting on my desk - a spellchecker on my computer - all the things I was told at school have proven to be incorrect and I do very well thank you without all that I wa taught at school. (What I have learnt since high school is a whole different ballgame ...)

[mashman]

So there is no value in being able to tie your own shoelace?

What value do you get from typing your shoelaces?

The only practical limit on what anyone's hard work can earn them is the exponential taxation of income.

Bullshit. It's how much money is available and how much your employer/customer decides to pay. I might add it also depends on how much money they're printing too.

Oh cool. Let's all sit around in a circle and wait for someone else provide the lunch. You genuinely can't see a problem with that, can you?

Elucidate.

Yeah, see, when you rely on wee gems like "negative achievement is the definition of success" as the foundation for your concept of productivity then it's no wonder you come up with such uniquely profound drivel.

You have to fail before you achieve. What you take out of that failure is entirely up to you... but it has led to much success over the years.

Oh I know you don't agree that you should be responsible for your own success, you've said nothing else since you first arrived here, it's always someone else's fault.

I never said that we shouldn't be responsible for our own "success", neither did I say that it's always someone else's fault... but I will say that believing that your success is down to you is a fraudulent claim.

Yeah, yeah, someone else's fault again. You've found a relationship between inflation and employment and you automatically leap on the assumption that one causes the other. Prove it.

You simply can't admit that each of us is responsible for our own success, it would mean that your failures would be your fault, and that's just too much to bear.

I would love to, but the RBNZ removed a document that I had a linky to that said that very thing. I believe Winston001 saw it when I mailed it to him once upon a year ago.

I can admit that perfectly fine thanks... which makes one of us.

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah, but that quote has been changed from Sir George Bernard Shaws original "He who can does, he who cannot teaches " and apparently is meant to refer to physical versus intellectual ability.

As far as shit teachers versus not wanting to learn etc, there's more to it like pupil to teacher ratios, funding, using remedial learning groups etc.

while at school i was never in a class of under 30 until 5th form.
had remedial classes for those that needed help.

Funding might be an issue but it is more that you are not allowed to single someone out as different so they are all in the same class learning nothing together.

If teachers are required to give the kids compulsory testing every three weeks to see how much they have improved since the last test (three weeks ago) how much time do you think they spend actually teaching?

Not if you live in jandals ... (sorry, I could not resist that one - and yes, I do live in jandals when I'm not wearing motorcycle boots - which are not lace up either)

But seriously, you make a serious point ... the curricullum needs to fit the modern world - I was taught to write with a fountain pen - then along came biros etc and now I almosty never use a pen - I use a keyboard.

I am hopeless at arithmetic - 2 + 2 = 4 anything else I use a calculator ... I was told at school I woud never amount to much unless I coud add subtract multiple and divide .. well bugger me . I did amount to something and I have a calculator sitting on my desk - a spellchecker on my computer - all the things I was told at school have proven to be incorrect and I do very well thank you without all that I wa taught at school. (What I have learnt since high school is a whole different ballgame ...)

We did. the teachers would go through a unit, have a test on the units we had done and at the end of term have a test on that terms work.
Nothing new just teachers wanting to blame someone else for their shortcomings.

Totally agree, to a point.
when my my bro sat school c maths he wasn't allowed a calc and had to use tables for trig, three years later we could use a calc for all.
But there is not a day goes by that i don't use some formula of some sort, yes I use a calc, but i have to know what one to use.
Just the different jobs we choose to do.

What value do you get from typing your shoelaces?

None, but maybe you should put some value into spell checker.

[SVboy]

Funny how the teachers aren't lining up to take the "credit" for this result... when we do well you have to beat them off with a stick

An example perhaps? Or just an ignorant cheap shot? Thought so....

[SVboy]

Excellent observation!

and the sheep is back....

[Zedder]

while at school i was never in a class of under 30 until 5th form.
had remedial classes for those that needed help.

Funding might be an issue but it is more that you are not allowed to single someone out as different so they are all in the same class learning nothing together.

Without going more into the specifics of your school and you, I get what you're writing about.

Sometimes it just boils down to what "pushes your buttons". With me it was science, I didn't like much else but knew and was told it was a package deal.

[Banditbandit]

We did. the teachers would go through a unit, have a test on the units we had done and at the end of term have a test on that terms work.
Nothing new just teachers wanting to blame someone else for their shortcomings.

We did not have that when I went to school ... by the time that came in people of my age or older were complaining about the poor standards of people leaving school ...

See ... somethings never change ...