Orange Street Triple R on Akaroa Highway? (2 January)

[Headbanger]

The only time when I would consider fast to be safe would be when overtaking.

Unless you go so slow you fall over.

Thats not safe.

Might get a bruise.

[pritch]

As I said an opinion from Rastus would be interesting to confirm or deny that safety is not compromised by going fast around bends.

So, how fast were you going when you went around the bend?

I have to acknowledge your bravery(?) in arguing with an IAM member with no evident understanding of even what the IAM is.

Katman,
I have had several copies of the Police training handbook on which the IAM syllabus is based and I seem to recall that it does include advice to avoid the detritus on the outside of a right hand bend. My only reservation regarding their dogma concerns wide entry on a blind left hander in which case you are ideally positioned to hit the 4WD cutting the corner from the opposite direction right between the headlights. UK magazines have campaigned for this to be changed but getting a civil servant to stick their head above the parapet to suggest amending the "bible" is asking a lot.

My condolences to the OP. His post deserved a more intelligent response. Oh wait. This is KB.

[Katman]

My only reservation regarding their dogma concerns wide entry on a blind left hander in which case you are ideally positioned to hit the 4WD cutting the corner from the opposite direction right between the headlights. UK magazines have campaigned for this to be changed but getting a civil servant to stick their head above the parapet to suggest amending the "bible" is asking a lot.

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who questions the validity of their cornering technique.

And my understanding is that it is not just a 'wide entry' that they recommend. I believe their idea is to stay wide right the way through the corner.

[GTRMAN]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who questions the validity of their cornering technique.

And my understanding is that it is not just a 'wide entry' that they recommend. I believe their idea is to stay wide right the way through the corner.

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action. Always sacrifice position for safety, that is the most important tenant of roadcraft. As others have already said, it does you no favours to single out a single element of the roadcraft system when all the elements need to be considered together and in context.

[Katman]

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action. Always sacrifice position for safety, that is the most important tenant of roadcraft. As others have already said, it does you no favours to single out a single element of the roadcraft system when all the elements need to be considered together and in context.

I would rather sacrifice a bit of corner speed than compromise my cornering position.

[Gremlin]

And my understanding is that it is not just a 'wide entry' that they recommend. I believe their idea is to stay wide right the way through the corner.

Probably best you know the whole system before trying to argue about it, but then, unless you were interested you wouldn't want to spend the time, and it's not a couple of minutes to learn it.

Regardless, I think we're flogging the proverbial horse now. Blackbird said it way back, it's not going to be ideal for everyone, but it is an internationally recognised system. Personally, I agree with it.

[rastuscat]

Havent read this whole thread, but read the OP and have chatted to the bloke who wrote it.

WTF is wrong with admiring good riding skills?

The speed advantage bikes have over cars is significant in bends. Our ability to lean into corners gives us a huge advantage over cagers. Get your lines right and corners are like motorcycling nirvana.

Get a decent bend right and its all good. Just remember that you've only got to get it wrong once for it to be not worth the thrill.

Keep a little in reserve. Then use that when it gets ugly. It might save your insurance company a panel beaters delight.

[Katman]

Probably best you know the whole system before trying to argue about it, but then, unless you were interested you wouldn't want to spend the time, and it's not a couple of minutes to learn it.

How the fuck would you have the slightest clue what I might know about the IAM roadcraft system?

[Blackbird]

Well I'm glad I'm not the only one who questions the validity of their cornering technique.

With respect Steve, when you get a few more IAM rides under your belt, you'll realise that the so-called "dogma" isn't dogmatic at all! The principle is to take a wide position to get maximum view through the bend and time to react as has already been correctly stated. However, each corner is assessed on individual merits with the rider scanning the road surface for potential hazards and adjusting their position to suit (the Safety, Stability and View components of Roadcraft). GTRMan makes an absolutely valid point too.

This really isn't the place to debate riding techniques as we've all seen ample evidence that it's pretty much a pointless medium for doing so. This is my own personal opinion, not that of IAM; but if you think it has something to offer you, come along and enjoy it and ask lots of questions. If you think it's not for you based on your one or two rides so far, then it's your decision if you wish to stop coming. There is a waiting list for people who are keen to see what it offers in many regions.

[rastuscat]

BTW. The roadcraft system rocks. We use it. After a while it becomes subconscious. Worth spending the time to learn it.

[Gremlin]

How the fuck would you have the slightest clue what I might know about the IAM roadcraft system?

As someone comfortable with the system, training towards Observer status and therefore needing to have a good understanding, you clearly have had some exposure, but unless you've been abbreviating in your replies (quite possible) you do not have a comprehensive understanding as to all the ins and outs, and why things are done in the way they are done.

You're always welcome to more rides, IAM is still expanding and mostly limited to 3 regions currently, but the aim is to expose as many willing riders to it as possible over the coming years.

[pritch]

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action.

I mentioned a blind left hand bend. BIKE magazine put a camera on just such a bend and there were a number of 4WDs, and even a caravan, encroaching on the wrong side of the road exactly at the point where the handbook says the bike should be. Any one of which would probably have been the last thing you ever saw if you followed the manual to the letter. The only appropriate action is to stay somewhat left of the position advised in the Police handbook on a blind bend.

[Headbanger]

Here's the thing though, positioning to the right for a left hand bend affords you the earliest opportunity to see the aforementioned 4x4 and take appropriate action.

So, expose yourself to the potential risk in order to then take evasive action to avoid that which you just exposed yourself to.

That's more logical then just planning for the potential risk and maintaining a safe position?

Holy fuck, I'm going to take this one to work, Expose yourself to danger in order to avoid it.

Hey you, Jump in front of that dump truck, then jump out of the way, Champion.

[Headbanger]

Also, why does anyone believe that one component of a system can't be considered on its own merits?

If it makes sense it will stand up to scrutiny, if not that it should be approached critically and modified as required.

Any system that doesn't include a method for review can't be improved, and lessons learned are meaningless.

[ellipsis]

...if only I had known that a fast, smooth motorcyclist was out on HW75...i'd have been down there in a flash, to wave at him...