Orange Street Triple R on Akaroa Highway? (2 January)

[Grubber]

I have noticed the debate in this thread over cornering lines and I noticed in that debate the IAMS method was attacked for placing the rider in the direct path of anything coming the other way over the centre line. For your interest I agree with those who said it can be road/traffic dependent so would be anti IAMs on that too. I may have admired the fast riding of the guy poster 1 was
admiring too but the differnce is I would not have called it safe as well. If fast riding was safe there would be no need for crash barriers on race tracks would there?

Seriously.
Race tracks, we are talking about 200+kph side by side in competition, not bloody 110kph on open road.
Can you seriously not see the difference.
I'm really not sure that all of your 34 years or whatever it is has taught you anything about common sense.

[SMOKEU]

If you now think he was so good how come you had any fear of him crashing? A responsible rider would never ride in such a way as to create a fear of crashing in their pillion
but maybe this is missing from the IAMS manual.

A non rider, or relatively inexperienced rider, will often wrongly perceive a comparatively safe maneuver as a particularly dangerous one, especially when on the back of a bike. I too would be scared on the back of any bike, regardless of the rider since I haven't been on the back of a bike since I was a child and I'm not used to the feeling of not being in control while being on a bike.

NZ in comparison requires officers to have attended an advanced driving training course, as I understand, nothing more specific? I consider the UK approach to produce real quality, but hey, let's have an opinion, based on no fact, and consider it better??

NZ Police officers are rated with either a bronze, silver or gold rating. IIRC, only gold rated officers are allowed to pursue other vehicles. I'm sure there will be an officer along here to correct me soon enough if I'm wrong.

[ckai]

I have noticed the debate in this thread over cornering lines and I noticed in that debate the IAMS method was attacked for placing the rider in the direct path of anything coming the other way over the centre line. For your interest I agree with those who said it can be road/traffic dependent so would be anti IAMs on that too. I may have admired the fast riding of the guy poster 1 was
admiring too but the differnce is I would not have called it safe as well. If fast riding was safe there would be no need for crash barriers on race tracks would there?

Quick question, so hopefully I can clear up my idea of the stance you take about relative speed and corning. You're going around a 65km/h corner. From what I've read and what I understand, you would take that corner at 65 as that has been deemed the safe speed and anything over that would be unsafe. This is what the government tells us. I believe this is your stance, no?

Same corner, Mr World MotoGP Champion clearly would go faster than you around that corner. Because who is going faster, you're saying he is unsafe because he is going faster than what has been deemed safe by the government. Is this right?

Oh yeah sorry, let's eliminate one variable, you're both on the same bike.

If there was gravel on the same corner, Mr Champion would handle that gravel considerably better than you, even though he was travelling at what you deem an unsafe speed. I'm not doubting your ability, I just know your ability, including your reaction time, isn't as good as his.

From this simple experiment we can conclude:

Someone is not unsafe by how fast they travel but their ability to travel at a certain speed. We're not talking about perceived ability either. Actual ability.

And for the record, advance training does not produce over confident riders/drivers. Over confidence is instilled in the mindset before training ever begins. Most of the time this is trained out of you, eventually. Some will never change though. Fact of life.

I have had advance training. A good chunk. I will do more. I am more aware of my ability. I do not ride faster on the road because of this. I ride slower (or so it feels). I am the like the majority who do advance training.

Now where the fuck are the keys for the Trumpy?

[george formby]

Another thing that has been overlooked in this debate is that some bikes can be safer than others for certain roads so no matter how much riding school training a rider has had if they are on the wrong bike for the type of riding they want to do their level of safety is going to be compromised.

For what its worth the claim made by another poster that the Govt sees advanced rider training schools creating a overconfident attitude I feel is proven by the attitude of IAMS supporters in this thread.

Can you expand on your bold statement Cassina?


I think you may be confusing rider confidence in the training with riders confidence in ability re IAM's. I'm trying to improve my road riding ability & the more I learn the more cautious I become but the more I enjoy riding.

A training weekend with CSS may have a different effect for some riders.

[SMOKEU]

Someone is not unsafe by how fast they travel but their ability to travel at a certain speed. We're not talking about perceived ability either. Actual ability.

Best post so far! If only the government understood that...

[bogan]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think. You have to remember most motorists can not possibly afford a Porsche or a bike tuned for high speed cornering hence the reason why the limit stated may be less than what you can do safely on your sports bike which in my opinion have a safety deficiantcy in themselves in that your periferel vision
is limited by the lower bars. My argument is no matter how safe the IAMS guys think they can corner there is a safety trade off in stopping/slowing down time which is something they are not prepaired to agree with. It was another poster that claimed advanced riding instruction would create overconfidence and as I said reading the posts from the IAMS guys do give me that impression

Take a look behind you next time you go around a 65kmhr bend at 65 on the nose, the horse and cart who will be right on your tail afterwards should tell you all you need to know about government speed ratings.

A guy who is aware of their own limits and ride to them is much more safe than one riding to somebody else's limits with no fucking clue of their own.

[Headbanger]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think.

I believe the yellow speed signs are a recommendation, and only trucks are required to adhere to the posted limit.

And its not very pro-active to wait until a few people crash to put in a control, I'm lead to believe that initially the engineers had a car fitted with a device that measured the forces the vehicle was put under while going through the corner (and I believe it was as simple as a marble in a curved slot).

I'd assume that nowadays they could simply calculate the number based on the radius and the camber during the design stage.

I have no reference for any of this......

edit-Tool is called a ball-bank

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=b...w=1358&bih=813

[Headbanger]

Info.

http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream...rveAdvSpds.pdf

[iranana]

I don't really get what's going on in this thread, and it's way too long to read, but...

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think.

Pretty sure some of them must be, or they were established at a time when most vehicles were heavy, had shitty brakes, no seatbelts and no power steering. There use to be this corner on the road to Piha that was marked at 35 or something, but you could comfortably hit it at 80. Since then they've bumped it up a bit to something like 65...

A guy who is aware of their own limits and ride to them is much more safe than one riding to somebody else's limits with no fucking clue of their own.

I agree, mostly.

[Madness]

I note in this thread however he has not taken any sides in the debate which I find quite odd but he did give the impression in this thread some of the IAMS fast and and safe supporters were his mates and I guess he does not want to fall out with them.

There's a debate going on in this thread? Really?

[ckai]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think. You have to remember most motorists can not possibly afford a Porsche or a bike tuned for high speed cornering hence the reason why the limit stated may be less than what you can do safely on your sports bike which in my opinion have a safety deficiantcy in themselves in that your periferel vision
is limited by the lower bars. My argument is no matter how safe the IAMS guys think they can corner there is a safety trade off in stopping/slowing down time which is something they are not prepaired to agree with. It was another poster that claimed advanced riding instruction would create overconfidence and as I said reading the posts from the IAMS guys do give me that impression

You're missing the point completely. If you take a look back at my question I put to you, I asked you to compare yourself with a MotoGP Champ on the same bike. What would the differentiating factor be? Rider ability - pure and simple. The yellow sign with 65 written on it is merely an indication of what you believe you must travel around that corner. At least, this is the impressive I've gotten from what you're said.

The motogp champ isn't gonna give a shit. He'll ride that corner the speed he wants. Maybe considering the sign, maybe not. If the shit hits the fan, motogp champ with have the ability to save his ass better than you can. You, my friend, have proven that lack of ability can screw you up at any speed. Sticking to the signs or not. So I'll say it again:

It is ability that makes you unsafe NOT speed.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying you lack ability. I'm saying you lack ability compared with a highly trained, lightning responses, god-like motogp champ. I don't know you, or your ability. It would be daft of me to comment on such a thing.

Also I wasn't saying you mentioned about the rider training. I was just adding it in to save posting multiple times.

[ellipsis]

...I have yet to see where any person on side with any advanced rider training has advocated that higher speeds or wishing to attain higher speeds in cornering, is part of their ethos...somehow it has been insinuated or imagined (by cassina), that this is part of their doctrine...this thread is like being involved with a discussion between a 14 year old vegetarian greenie and grown ups, but the 14 year old should have gone to bed much earlier...

[Gremlin]

So you think speed limits on bends are just made up by the Govt then well I bet you are wrong as it is often stated in the media that speed limits are made as a result of the number of crashes on those bends so they are hardly made up as you think.

There is no speed limit on any corner in the country. There are recommendations for a safe and comfortable speed in good conditions for some of the corners, usually on the main routes of travel. There is no legal requirement to do this speed, they are advisory and as such, are in yellow and black (while requirements use white and red - it's a big lengthy document). These speeds are set based on specially equipped vans using a variety of sensors to determine the correct speed, although I've noticed many in my travels that are too high or low. You'll also notice that mandatory speed signs end in x0 and advisory end in x5. This is intentional.

I can only imagine how you would fare on roads without those corner signs... the whole point of advanced riding techniques is to help you be safer regardless of the road you're travelling on.

[Blackbird]

I don't really get what's going on in this thread, and it's way too long to read, but...

It went off track pretty quickly, even for KB! . Muppett complimented a chap for showing great Roadcraft (the advanced system used to train police in the UK and NZ, plus also available to civilians through IAM, RoSPA etc). A moron (or troll) called cassina chose to misinterpret everything most people said and called on Rastuscat, a senior police officer to pass comment. Rastus replied that Roadcraft rocked so cassina accused him of protecting/siding with his "IAM mates" and continues to muddy the waters. I think the main thing is that a lot of riders are trying to improve their safe riding by various training systems and some aren't. Whether cassina is actually trying to improve his through formal training has never been disclosed and the rest is name-calling. That's probably all you need to know

[bogan]

There is no speed limit on any corner in the country.

Is it just the straight bits in between then? Could bring a new meaning to late braking...