NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[Billy]

Was Jim that homologated our KR1's. So all done by the book.

Hmm,Hes a top bloke alright AND he was the person I nominated to represent the commission in this appeal.

By Homologate,Do you mean "Helped bolt the big carbs etc on" ? hahahahaha,Thats a very different scenario to this one,From memory the rule at the time was "Must be 10 available to the general public to be homologated" Mustve been a big night in the Wellington branch of KHI that"

So now you see what we're trying to stop replicating,Really don't want a return of"The good old days" where theres so many illegal bikes in the feild its just impossible to police haha

[scott411]

Hmm,Hes a top bloke alright AND he was the person I nominated to represent the commission in this appeal.

By Homologate,Do you mean "Helped bolt the big carbs etc on" ? hahahahaha,Thats a very different scenario to this one,From memory the rule at the time was "Must be 10 available to the general public to be homologated" Mustve been a big night in the Wellington branch of KHI that"

So now you see what we're trying to stop replicating,Really don't want a return of"The good old days" where theres so many illegal bikes in the feild its just impossible to police haha

or fuck, there goes my sales plans for next years Ninja 250R SP

[Billy]

Sorry, Billy - note it's " all items NOT mentioned ".....As soon as someone wrote note 2, it opened up engine parts as an area which could be changed. BUT of course using OEM parts...

Then when the same someone tied the specs to a service manual - which has a stated range of tolerances for certain given parts - again, it was opened up for a builder to match those tolerances. In my opinion there is no difference between a factory produced head of "X" thickness and one which has been taken to "X" thickness by a builder.....And if that X thickness matches what the factory says is within tolerances - it's legal.

My stated aversion to asking for clarification is based on years of receiving wrong info from MNZ reps. I'm of the opinion that my interpretation of written rules is at least as good as any elected or appointed representative.

Yea,I'd be remiss to suggest the system was anywhere perfect,BUT NOWHERE does it mention you can machine engine parts other than bore size.

[Billy]

or fuck, there goes my sales plans for next years Ninja 250R SP

Hahahahaha,Wanna buy 1

[Kiwi Graham:Me]

I dont know the facts but..

Isn’t this the classic age old case of an engine builder building (in this case blue printing) an engine ‘to’ the rules clearly as he/they interpreted them. And as in this case felt that should there be a dispute they had a defence.

Guys the above scenario has been happening world wide for bloody years within far more intricate rulings and classes than ours in dear old UnZud and I can t see it changing, F1, Americas cup, Dorna et al

Part of the engine builders and now electronic techs job is to build what they can within the confines of the ruling and be able to defend the job done should the need arise.

The art of the rule maker is to produce rules that are un-interpretable and the art of the engineer is to find an interpretation that works in front of a panel of experts.

I used to work for a small privateer world endurance team and we had bloody lawyers looking at rule interpretation should there be a need for defence in an effort to maximise our strategy from an engineering perspective.

When a rule change effects what has been happening comes into place the boffins will run off into the corners and devise through R&D an alternative to regain what was lost and in some circumstances improve on that loss.

[Grumph]

Yea,I'd be remiss to suggest the system was anywhere perfect,BUT NOWHERE does it mention you can machine engine parts other than bore size.

I've scoured appendix I and nowhere does it say you can't.....How do you plan on differentiating a head - or barrel - which has been taken to the minimum thickness from an OE one which came out of the factory at that thickness ?

Short of one entity owning all the bikes in a class you're never going to stop people going to the limit of the rules.

when i was doing a lot of speedway motors i made the point very publicly that next time they changed the engine rules, they should talk to the engine builders first.....couldn't hurt.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Hmm,Hes a top bloke alright AND he was the person I nominated to represent the commission in this appeal.

By Homologate,Do you mean "Helped bolt the big carbs etc on" ? hahahahaha,Thats a very different scenario to this one,From memory the rule at the time was "Must be 10 available to the general public to be homologated" Mustve been a big night in the Wellington branch of KHI that"

So now you see what we're trying to stop replicating,Really don't want a return of"The good old days" where theres so many illegal bikes in the feild its just impossible to police haha

Absolutely mate. Doubt ANYONE would like it to be how it once was.

or fuck, there goes my sales plans for next years Ninja 250R SP

Lol. Bummer huh!

[manxkiwi]

Do us all a favour by bringing yourself up to speed before pulling onto the motorway.

I think I might use that as my sig., if you don't mind? He he.

[SS90]

I've scoured appendix I and nowhere does it say you can't.....How do you plan on differentiating a head - or barrel - which has been taken to the minimum thickness from an OE one which came out of the factory at that thickness ?

Short of one entity owning all the bikes in a class you're never going to stop people going to the limit of the rules.

when i was doing a lot of speedway motors i made the point very publicly that next time they changed the engine rules, they should talk to the engine builders first.....couldn't hurt.

I'm not sure that I have ever seen an engine spec sheet that gives the "height of a standard cylinder head there Greg" (unless of course "homalgomated" bikes have such a tech sheet) and if it is not a spec that is available how does one know?

The volume of the combustion chamber (which of course is easily measured) is such an easy thing to measure, it has the correct compressîon ratio, or not.

If an inspected engine has a smaller combustion chamber volume, it's fair to say its been skimmed, if you measure the thickness of the head or not. (which will also retard the cam timing anyway.... Can't see that as a gain)

Anyway.....over boring an engine (as the engine in question has been suggested to have been) will alter the compression ratio, and, by the rules, this cannot be remedied.

A massive gain?

Unlikely.

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

[RobGassit]

One thing is for certain, MNZ god bless them could be well served with some legal advice on setting up rules with less room for artistic licence and clear cut procedures for the poor bastard stewards who operate between a rock and a hard place for a cut lunch and a bus pass. Swerve built a rocket and got away with it. Nice one. Bailie rode the legs off it. That's great. I hope Bailie can develop his talent in other classes and still do well in an EJC style class. I hope Swerve will share some of his secrets so we can all get the very best out of our OEM pieces of shit. We are off to race ProTwins,,, surely there won't be many blueprinted engines in that class. Now where did I put that Yoshimura catalogue?

[chindit]

(Remain as originally produced by the manufacturer) may be a clue there as to grinding chopping filing may not be allowed. MNZ are not perfect, the rulebook is not perfect, but you can change all that if you want to. Get elected on the board, submit rule changes. Your commissioner is retiring . I don't know him but my guess he has put more time and effort into his job than is good for him. So all the rulebook experts that can read between the lines become the commissioner, its really easy. Read Tony ok post (the one with the red ) Look at what the rules say, not what they don't say.
I can tell you from personal experience protests, appeals, people who think they know the rules, and people just winging for the sake of it you get sick of it. Please people stick to the rules don't bend them and stop criticizing the people trying there best to organize your events. Its suppose to be fun and sometimes being a official (flaggy COC steward ECT) you feel like just going home and its not fun.
So who the sucke....... person up for road race commissioner

[roogazza]

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

Arrrgh grasshopper ! You have much to learn !

[Billy]

I'm not sure that I have ever seen an engine spec sheet that gives the "height of a standard cylinder head there Greg" (unless of course "homalgomated" bikes have such a tech sheet) and if it is not a spec that is available how does one know?

The volume of the combustion chamber (which of course is easily measured) is such an easy thing to measure, it has the correct compressîon ratio, or not.

If an inspected engine has a smaller combustion chamber volume, it's fair to say its been skimmed, if you measure the thickness of the head or not. (which will also retard the cam timing anyway.... Can't see that as a gain)

Anyway.....over boring an engine (as the engine in question has been suggested to have been) will alter the compression ratio, and, by the rules, this cannot be remedied.

A massive gain?

Unlikely.

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

So how did you turn The "The only thing you can machine is the cylinder bore size" into,The machine in question was bored oversize?????? Shall we add that to the "Apparent" close ratio gearbox that doesn't exist.I'm pretty sure I saw a turbo as well,It was on a van parked in the car park,But lets add that to the list of non existent issues.

I know the written text can be hard to gauge sometimes,But come on!!!

[SS90]

So how did you turn The "The only thing you can machine is the cylinder bore size" into,The machine in question was bored oversize?????? Shall we add that to the "Apparent" close ratio gearbox that doesn't exist.I'm pretty sure I saw a turbo as well,It was on a van parked in the car park,But lets add that to the list of non existent issues.

I know the written text can be hard to gauge sometimes,But come on!!!

Ok, we'll if I am mistaken, is there any chance someone could enlighten me to what was actually done?

It has been implied material has been removed..... From where?

[RobGassit]

Ok, we'll if I am mistaken, is there any chance someone could enlighten me to what was actually done?

It has been implied material has been removed..... From where?

Really? You really expect an answer to this post? And you are mistaken, in fact you are so mistaken I can't actually believe you are not taking the piss. Emmerdale is on soon,,, I wouldn't want you to miss an episode.