NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[Shaun Harris]

Ok, we'll if I am mistaken, is there any chance someone could enlighten me to what was actually done?

It has been implied material has been removed..... From where?

implied is the key word there just like the so called close ratio gear box, JUST RUMOURS Not written any where that I have seen.


All will come out at the exspense of the MNZ owners account ( The licence holders) The appeal just over turned has made a very bad naieve decision and the next appeal of that appeal is going to cost big time money wise out of MNZ Kitty.

If proven METAL was removed, it is NOT as OEM Produced so is illegal!

Sorry Bailie I KNOW you had nothing to do with the building of this bike and unfortunately you are going to suffer more due to work carried out on the bike you were sponsored to race.

[SS90]

Really? You really expect an answer to this post? And you are mistaken, in fact you are so mistaken I can't actually believe you are not taking the piss. Emmerdale is on soon,,, I wouldn't want you to miss an episode.

Oh I see, it's a secret club thing. As you where. Just another jerk circle.

[quickbuck]

Oh I see, it's a secret club thing. As you where. Just another jerk circle.

It's not that.
It is more along the lines of "This is not the time or place" to publish those findings.
As has been stated... I can't remember if it was here or Facebook, but in essence there will be an official report come out about it all.
I'm picking this will be from MNZ. You are not going to get snippets of it on here....
Just more bits of information to take out of context if that were to happen.





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[Shaun Harris]

It's not that.
It is more along the lines of "This is not the time or place" to publish those findings.
As has been stated... I can't remember if it was here or Facebook, but in essence there will be an official report come out about it all.
I'm picking this will be from MNZ. You are not going to get snippets of it on here....
Just more bits of information to take out of context if that were to happen.





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It is on mnz web site home page

[Grumph]

I'm not sure that I have ever seen an engine spec sheet that gives the "height of a standard cylinder head there Greg" (unless of course "homalgomated" bikes have such a tech sheet) and if it is not a spec that is available how does one know?


A massive gain?

Unlikely.

Over boring a cylinder for no other reason other than the hope of gaining power in a producation 250 class?

Lame.

Neil - i haven't read the report yet so i don't know on what grounds the appeal was upheld. I also don't know what is in the factory manuals for this model, yet..
Small gains, yes - but in my (very) long experience it's usually not the guys at the front of a class like this that are the cheats, it's the mid field runners who want to move forward. In Formula ford for years most of the midfield engines were illegal...Details supplied on request (request on back of $100 note please)
In this case as has been said here, Swoop built a LEGAL rocket - and Baillie rode the wheels off it. On his home circuit...
I've personally spoken to guys who rode against it and they were the ones saying close ratio box....If none exists, case closed on that rumour. They also said higher rev limiter....I'm assuming the numbers on the ignition box were kosher too. Finish that rumour too.

The process of protest and appeal obviously works....My original advice of appeal and race under protest comes straight from the Kevin McCleary song book - make the protester prove his case....Even if it's MNZ.

[Billy]

Neil - i haven't read the report yet so i don't know on what grounds the appeal was upheld. I also don't know what is in the factory manuals for this model, yet..
Small gains, yes - but in my (very) long experience it's usually not the guys at the front of a class like this that are the cheats, it's the mid field runners who want to move forward. In Formula ford for years most of the midfield engines were illegal...Details supplied on request (request on back of $100 note please)
In this case as has been said here, Swoop built a LEGAL rocket - and Baillie rode the wheels off it. On his home circuit...
I've personally spoken to guys who rode against it and they were the ones saying close ratio box....If none exists, case closed on that rumour. They also said higher rev limiter....I'm assuming the numbers on the ignition box were kosher too. Finish that rumour too.

The process of protest and appeal obviously works....My original advice of appeal and race under protest comes straight from the Kevin McCleary song book - make the protester prove his case....Even if it's MNZ.

Not going to go into specifics for obvious reasons,But there are some areas that you have mentioned above that need looking at when we get to the sports tribunal that were mystically overlooked IMO,Just a wee correction as well,I think you may mean Swerve not Swoop,Funnily enough though as Swoop was one of the officials that wanted the machine inspected

[RobGassit]

Yeah but swoop is the sound it made when it went past,,,

[Grumph]

Not going to go into specifics for obvious reasons,But there are some areas that you have mentioned above that need looking at when we get to the sports tribunal that were mystically overlooked IMO,Just a wee correction as well,I think you may mean Swerve not Swoop,Funnily enough though as Swoop was one of the officials that wanted the machine inspected

Correction duly noted - My apologies to Swoop.

[Yow Ling]

So all this talk about OEM this and that , what does it actually mean?

"The term OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. What does that really mean? It means that the part was made by a company that is a subcontractor to a vehicle manufacturer. It DOES NOT mean the part was made by the manufacturer. Some examples;
•Most fuel parts on a VW are made by Bosch. This means that Bosch is the OEM for VW regardless of where you buy the Bosch part it is still OEM.
•Tong Yang (A Chinese company) is the OEM light, mirror and radiator subcontractor for Nissan and Toyota.
•Hella is an OEM light supplier to many of the European vehicles.
•Almost all remanufactured parts are OEM as the original part is rebuilt which does not change whom made the part.

It has long been a common missconception that only a vehicle dealership carries OEM parts. Though they would like you to beleive that, it is not the case. Many if not most parts you get from a dealership you can also get elsewhere for less money made by the exact same company in a different box."

So if you were thinking that OEM for all the parts on this bike is Kawasaki you may be surprised, ART for example make lots of pistons, maybe KHI doesn't make any pistons.
Also the removing metal bit is a bit shaky, all manufacturers remove metal , its called subtractive machining, the kind that's done on lathes , mills , boring machines, grinders etc, who can tell who removed the metal and when.

Just something to think about

[tigertim20]

Seems pretty black n white the way rules are written, allows for blueprinting via selection of OEM parts, but not modification of OEM parts.

Spot on,Living proof that the manual is not that hard to understand,So long as you don't read into it what you want.

so, if one assumes the rules are written as they are in order to ensure that people are competing on equal machinery, why split hairs on the matter of 'selecting from a range of oem parts' and 'machining said part WITHIN MANUFACTURERS SPECS'?
I mean, manufacturers specs have some range to them, due to manufacturing being an imperfect process - thus two or three bikes that came off the assemble line sequentially are likely to have slightly different measurements of the fitted parts, and from what I understand, it isnt uncommon for this to result in said sequentially produced bikes to perform differently on a dyno when compared to each other.
So this imperfection on manufacturing creates something on a luck of the draw scenario for who buys the bike off the floor with the slightly more beneficially spec'd parts does it not?

surely provided the parts on each machine are within manufacturer specs, then everyone truly has the opportunity to create equal machinery by blueprinting to whatever spec within the range is 'ideal'?

[vickib]

The problem with the statement at the start of your post,Is the competitors don't get the right to interpret the rules,Basically,If your not sure,Ask,Ignorance is no excuse,A few have rung me during my time as commissioner and have gone away with the info they required,Sometimes its what the y wanted to hear,Sometimes,Not so much,


But in the case of the introduction to appendix I,You have to be reasonably stupid to not understand the intent,I meam,If the intent was to allow machining of surfaces,Then there would be an allowance for a different thickness gasket to compensate,Not sure where you heard the rumor of a close ratio gearbox,But thats the rumormill at work.

It appears this is heading to the sports tribunal as there are a number of affected folks lining up to do so,So I won't elaborate too much,But Ive just being going through the file and piccies again with the steward and there are some serious areas of concern,I'll await the report before I make a final decision on my thoughts,Thats assuming anybody bothers to keep me in the loop seeing as I had to hear about the decision release from Australia today,Go figure aye

close ratio gear box haha undercut gear box is the correct term. Apparantly u get your standard gear box and have your favorite machine shop under cut it for you apparantly. this was illegal last year in nz, but been a rule change for 2014 allowing it. 1 250 Production bike wont have to worry as already done and tested it in all 2013. even though the bike builder had to have it done 2 times to get it right apparantly haha

[Grumph]

close ratio gear box haha undercut gear box is the correct term. Apparantly u get your standard gear box and have your favorite machine shop under cut it for you apparantly. this was illegal last year in nz, but been a rule change for 2014 allowing it. 1 250 Production bike wont have to worry as already done and tested it in all 2013. even though the bike builder had to have it done 2 times to get it right apparantly haha

No, sir, wrong. i said, and meant, close ratio box. Fellow competitors were (allegedly) noticing different gearchange points...i'd also point out ,carefully, that it was Baillies home circuit which he could reasonably be expected to know a little better than some others...

i've asked for someone to point out for me where or how a close ratio box can be obtained for these bikes...still waiting.

[quickbuck]

close ratio gear box haha undercut gear box is the correct term. Apparantly u get your standard gear box and have your favorite machine shop under cut it for you apparantly. this was illegal last year in nz, but been a rule change for 2014 allowing it. 1 250 Production bike wont have to worry as already done and tested it in all 2013. even though the bike builder had to have it done 2 times to get it right apparantly haha

Welcome.
2 weeks lurking, and finally posting in this mad house







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[suzuki21]

It seems people may be blaming the evil Darth Vader engine builder. If you asked someone to build a hot 600 motor for your road bike or to race in F2 then raced it in 600 superstock is it the engine builders fault? People generally do what the client wants, Im sure whoever built that engine didn't spend lots of his own time or get out work done on a motor to not be payed for it.

[Deano]

Well if this appeal decision stands......looks like it's time to open up the cheque books and start shaving off that unwanted metal. (Good luck with the cranks holding out for long on the SV650's hahaha)

Is that the intent of production racing, or is the idea to get a level playing field where rider skill is the biggest factor. (This is not an attack on anyone - I have a lot of respect for Baillie as a very good racer)

I'm sure that when it comes to interpreting legislation in court cases, the Hansard record can be referred to in order to determine the intention of Government when the legislation was drafted in order to clarify meanings.
Does that sort of natural justice not apply here ?

And I do appreciate that no two OEM engines may be identical in terms of tolerances but...