Moto3

[eelracing]

Or one of these...

Come on, place your orders now......

Mk1 on the left...Mk2 in the middle...and Steveys' on the right,good team man that he is.

[scott411]

what is the price of the honda does anyone know? and does moriwaki still do their one based on the crf250x motor?

[steveyb]

Mk1 on the left...Mk2 in the middle...and Steveys' on the right,good team man that he is.

You'll keep, don't you worry.......

what is the price of the honda does anyone know? and does moriwaki still do their one based on the crf250x motor?

The Moriwaki MD250H does indeed use the CRF250X engine. Hop-up kit includes buying the CRF250R head and various other bits and pieces. Used examples are available from the USA, Netherlands (ten Kate Racing) and Japan probably.
Harc-Pro made a bike too, for a short while, also using the Honda CRF250 engine, but discontinued it.
Moriwaki are now marketing the MD250S using the Suzuki RM-Z250 engine.
New I think they are about USD$14000 or so ex-USA, not 100% sure.

The NSF price totally depends on in which market you buy it, as does the KTM Moto3. The NZ dealer price, if you can get it (I tried sourcing NSF250 engines via Blue Wing Honda and was told they totally cannot buy them as they are not a Honda owned distributer. We also tried via the back door in Australia also to be told no), is much higher than equivalent prices overseas. Example, KTM Moto3 NZ price in 2013 was $92 or $94,000. Overseas the prices are much less than that. BUT, only very small numbers of bikes are available, so hard to get hold of.
So one would have to go searching around the world. Of course this is not impossible, bikes and engines are available.

2012 and 2013 NSF bikes are already available as the engines are no longer competitive, but they will be snapped up in country of origin I would think, for their local racers and the used bike prices are in the E 20-30,000 bracket from memory.
I think (also from poor memory) that the NSF250 was listed around USD$28,000 or something like that. That was for a base model bike, and bike only. The spares kit listed was a couple of rear sprockets, seat foam and some HRC stickers. Gone are the days when you got a spares kit to last 2 seasons with a new RS125. And that base bike is slower than a good RS125 and needs alot of work to make it faster. I have heard anecdotally of teams sending their Honda NSF engines to Italy for E30k worth of work to make them faster. Cannot verify that though. Sounds like a lot of effort.

There are other Moto3 bikes being marketed such as the Ioda. They want E60k or something daft. Mahindra will likely make their bike available soon too as it seems like a very nice bike. Made by an Italian firm. Also the Rumi Moto3 of course, but they are a small concern, so production would be small runs.

There is also a Pre-Moto3 bike in the USA from GP-Pro using the Yamaha YZ250F or WR250 engines. Around USD$20k mark.

Retail price for a Mk2 IMD250 is looking to be in the NZD$25k - 35k depending on specification (options available). We are still the only people exploring the KTM 250SX-F engine.

[scott411]

do you mean the 12 - 13 bikes you talk about being uncompetitive, are you talking in compared to moto 3, or against the 125's are here?

I would think they would be still up on horsepower to the mx engined bikes?

[steveyb]

Yes, the 2012/2013 Hondas in Moto3 at world level are, with the release of the 2014 model which is a total upgrade, virtually obsolete, at World level that is.
The evidence is clear. Millar on the best Honda last year could keep up for the first half of race and then fell back. This year the Hondas are competitive, if not a bit better than the KTM. The Mahindra is a touch off the pace, but still pretty good.

The evidence from around the traps in various countries has the 2012 and 2013 NSF250s in customer form, as only just competitive with good RS125 bikes (not standard ones, but kit ones).
Now, that is just customer form. Hot them up a bit and they are competitive. That is part of the reason why the countries that have introduced Moto3 classes have made them Moto3 only, such as Spain and Italy.
In the countries where 125 and Moto3 race together, the good riders still win, but 125's still tend to be at the pointy end more often.
In NZ we have a small number of really hot 125's, maybe 3? On our slower, stoppy starty circuits the NSF would undoubtedly come out ahead, with a good rider on board. We demonstrated the capabilities of such bikes at NZSBK 2014 Ruapuna and Levels with our prototype, far from optimal Pre-Moto3 bike and a learner rider who is really too big for this class, in that he was running in 2nd for a lap or two at the start and was competing for 4th place by the time he got up to speed.

Pre-Moto3 or GPMono is a level below Moto3.
In Spain, the Spanish Cup races Pre-Moto3 (and 125 together I think, can't recall). Spanish Cup is a national series, but a level below CEV.

Sure, a Moto3 engine should make more power than an MX engine, but that is mostly if you compare an NX7 (i.e. NSF250) engine to the Honda CRF engine.
The KTM engines are quite different (as I am sure you would well know Scott) and are designed to go racing straight out of the box, unlike the Jap engines which often require race kits to compete.

The new 2013/14 KTM 250SX-F engines have all the same stuff that the NX7 engine has and might even be a bit better on paper, on an engine dyno. These manufacturers are an odd bunch. KTM made a wicked camshaft profile in the 2005-2007 250SX-F, then went backwards until 2013. And now it turns out (from someone who has measured them up), that the 2013 KTM Moto3 cam profiles are the same as the 2005-2007 SX-F. So, if we put those cam profiles in a 2013 engine, with high comp piston and good ignition and pipe, it will make the same power as the NX7 engine, easily I would suggest and is designed to rev to 14000 rpm.

But the overall designs of the MX engines for roadbike racing are limited by the engine shape (with the transmission out the back they end up being long compared to the NX7 engine) and the transmission ratios (which are not optimal for road circuit use). But the latter can be fixed with time, effort and money.

The real power is found by adding some volume into the inlet tract, higher comp piston, programmable ignition and exhaust pipe optimisation. All of which we don't yet have on the IMD250, but yet just removing the engine from the compromised MX bike environment (i.e. exhaust, airbox, smaller chain, bigger carb etc) and slightly higher comp piston than standard, we have a real rear wheel hp of around 40 (our dyno shows more than that, but toning it back for the skeptics). The KTM engine has a lot more potential in it than we are currently achieving, even the 2007 non-balance shaft motors we have.

What I would really like to do is to optimise the transmission, but I realise I am probably dreaming with that.
We can do all the other stuff.
If someone has a 2013 250SX-F engine burning a hole in their pocket, send it over!!

[scott411]

the motor layout is something i thought of as well, the newer KTM250SX has a 5 speed gearbox right tho, the older one had a 6 speed which i thought would be better for your application,

the KTM probably has the most top end of the new 250F's, the US magazine tests all put the new YZ, KX and KTM over 40hp, std, with the KTM having by far the most over rev, which is a much better road race power band than the mid range mx type power bands of the KX and YZ,

http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/...B15C6F84A89E18

Would the reverse engine of the YZ (inlet in the front, exhaust out the back) configuration be of any use on the GP type bike?

[steveyb]

The 2013 6-spd trans can be fitted straight into the 2014 if required.
The CRF being 5-spd is used in the Moriwaki.
6-spd is I think better, but only really if the ratios are good. Currently we could probably get away with only using 2nd-6th, but takes a bit of management to do that.
The top end performance of the KTM is astounding. They go 1000 - 2000 rpm more than the competition.
The 2013-14 SXF engines are well over 40, nearly 45hp standard (or so KTM say anyway. Maybe PS on an engine dyno).

A WR450 engine (or is it a YZF450??) has been fitted into an RS125 chassis in NZ and goes really well. But the reverse engine makes no difference really, just makes making the exhaust a bit easier perhaps, but then maybe not because makes making an airbox a lot more complicated.

Two other bikes have been built in this vein: CRF450 in RS125 chassis, goes really well, and CRF250R in RS125 chassis, also goes really well. Maybe see it out more often next summer?

[scott411]

The 2013 6-spd trans can be fitted straight into the 2014 if required.
The CRF being 5-spd is used in the Moriwaki.
6-spd is I think better, but only really if the ratios are good. Currently we could probably get away with only using 2nd-6th, but takes a bit of management to do that.
The top end performance of the KTM is astounding. They go 1000 - 2000 rpm more than the competition.
The 2013-14 SXF engines are well over 40, nearly 45hp standard (or so KTM say anyway. Maybe PS on an engine dyno).

A WR450 engine (or is it a YZF450??) has been fitted into an RS125 chassis in NZ and goes really well. But the reverse engine makes no difference really, just makes making the exhaust a bit easier perhaps, but then maybe not because makes making an airbox a lot more complicated.

Two other bikes have been built in this vein: CRF450 in RS125 chassis, goes really well, and CRF250R in RS125 chassis, also goes really well. Maybe see it out more often next summer?

yes i have seen the 450 motors in the RS125, suprised this is not more popular as it would make a very fun bike, same with the formula 450 moto conversions, although the full engine transfer would probably be easier and a better handling bike,

[steveyb]

Yes, agree with that.
The MotoX conversions look like a good idea on paper, but in reality they just don't seem to work as well as is needed to compete against road-designed chassis.
In a feild on only MotoX conversions they would be great. But they also do end up costing quite a bit to do well.
With regard to the 450 transplants, I guess there are just not that many people with the combination of desire, interest in that class, money and engineering skills to do it.

[haydes55]

Moto3 at Mugello was amazing to watch, 3 wide photo finish for podium and a 3 way crash on the last lap taking out Marquez and Miller.

[steveyb]

I simply cannot fathom why in NZ, people don't want to have a piece of that sort of racing.
A field of 20 125's and Pre-Moto3's at NZSBK would be awesome to watch.
Get into it!!!

[richban]

I simply cannot fathom why in NZ, people don't want to have a piece of that sort of racing.
A field of 20 125's and Pre-Moto3's at NZSBK would be awesome to watch.
Get into it!!!

Looks like we will have to settle for the 250 pordie option. Still great racing. Another few on the grid and away yah go.

But yeah what a great race. Love the big mono's they are pulling out on those bikes. It really does look like they are having fun.

[Mattr]

I simply cannot fathom why in NZ, people don't want to have a piece of that sort of racing.
A field of 20 125's and Pre-Moto3's at NZSBK would be awesome to watch.
Get into it!!!

I agree totally. And awesome to ride

[haydes55]

I simply cannot fathom why in NZ, people don't want to have a piece of that sort of racing.

A field of 20 125's and Pre-Moto3's at NZSBK would be awesome to watch.

Get into it!!!

You reckon a Moto3 rider on a Moto3 spec bike would give the super sports a run for there money in NZ?

[steveyb]

I would not think so, but could do, could do....