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Thread: The Ukraine

  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark247 View Post
    Nice to hear.

    It's scary that the separatists have retreated to Donetsk. Why cant this battle be fought, by those with guns, out of the way of the innocent.
    They're people. The more we start to understand that the less likelihood there will be manufactured incidents.

    Why can't it be fought with reason. There is no reason to fight, let alone using bullets... other than it makes people money. True though, it's pretty disappointing that people accept collateral damage as a valid excuse for the murder of innocent people.
    I didn't think!!! I experimented!!!

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark247 View Post
    Again, I'm not lying about anything man, I might be a bit passionate about the topic, but that's it. I think I'm going to call it quits on this thread. Enjoy guys.
    I apologise if I came across as too abrasive, I did not want to insult anyone. You shouldn't leave this thread, although it is not an enjoyable one, as your input is appreciated. Peace man
    Cras ingens iterabimus aequor.

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark247 View Post
    . When did they just start killing civilians intentionally?
    In Maidan square during the protests....

    The Ukraine Loonies.....Right wing and nationalists polled 2% in the elections, yet hold over 20% of ministerial posts, including internal affairs.It has been widely reported by reputable observers, that nationalist "death squads" are roaming the east. Does shooting 15 wounded separatists in hospital do it for you........shooting a truckload of wounded.......good brave stuff.....

    Yes - probably a majority don't want any violence, but, history has shown, it only takes a small, well trained, motivated force to control the tide of events in the short term at least.
    “- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

  4. #259
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    John Pilger, always worth a read...

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-john-pilger

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    John Pilger, always worth a read...

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-john-pilger
    Good read. Ach, if the yanks quit war, their economy will tank.
    I didn't think!!! I experimented!!!

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    If they raise the lending rate their economy will tank
    Ours is in an ok position but is unsustainable
    Money comes from misery . . . If ya want big money . . . .

    The evil fkrs

    Dr smith i have a long memory . . . .
    "Look, Madame, where we live, look how we live ... look at the life we have...The Republic has forgotten us."

  7. #262
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    Intel dump.

    12 July 2014: In Ukraine the Russian backed Donbas separatists have suffered serious defeats in the last few weeks and are further weakened by internal disputes and less support from Russia. Ukrainian security forces have entered most rebel held areas and basically crippled Russian efforts to annex the Donbas. The two Ukrainian provinces (Donetsk and Luhansk) which comprise the Donbas are now mostly under government control. Donbas contains about nine percent of Ukrainian territory, 13 percent of the population and 15 percent of the GDP. Donbas is about 38 percent ethnic Russian. The two provinces comprise the Donets Basin (or “Donbas”) which was for a long time an economic powerhouse for Soviet Russia. But that began to decline in the 1980s and accelerated when the Soviet Union fell (and Ukraine became independent) in 1991. Ukraine wants to hold onto Donbas but needs foreign help to do so.

    Ukraine received diplomatic, economic and military aid from the West but the most important foreign aid was the economic pressure on Russia that causes a massive flight of foreign and Russian capital from Russia. The economic angle is important because Donbas residents (Ukrainians as well as ethnic Russians) are more concerned with the local economy than remaining part of Ukraine. Initial Russian success in Donbas was partly possible because two decades of corrupt and inept Ukrainian politicians have left the economy a mess and living standards lower than the rest of Eastern Europe and even Russia. Most Ukrainians want some economic progress and that means less corruption and more efficient government. Petro Poroshenko, the newly elected Ukrainian president is seen as honest and competent, but it remains to be seen if he can turn around enough corrupt government officials and politicians who currently run the government and economy. Poroshenko was sworn in on June 7th and Ukrainians expected him to show some results quickly otherwise the economic stagnation will continue and Donbas will be lost more to apathy than Russian aggression. Poroshenko’s efforts to deal with corruption and revive the national economy have gone forward but are still overshadowed by the Russian backed violence in Donbas.

    Poroshenko has shown he will not back down in the face of Russian threats and it is the Russians who have blinked, so far. Russian leaders were forced to pay attention to the capital flight (over $75 billion do far) because that has had a real and negative effect on the Russian economy. In addition Western nations are gradually severing Russian ties to the Western economy the Russian aggression unnerved many Russian investors and business leaders. Economic statistics for the year so far show the damage clearly. This financial panic makes it even more difficult for Russia to grow its economy and keep most Russians content with their increasingly authoritarian government. Economist expect more than $100 billion to leave Russia by the end of the year, and this cripples economic growth because that cash is not available to invest in new and existing businesses. As a result Russia has backed off on its support for the Donbas rebels but not completely abandoned them.

    Russia appears to have a “Plan B” for the Donbas that that includes keeping the rebels operational, even if at a very low level, so that by the end of the year, when the cold weather returns, Russia can uses its control over natural gas supplies for Ukraine to compel the Ukrainians to cede Donbas to Russia. This is a long shot but it is possible and Russia now trying to portray itself as the Good Guy and peacemaker. For the moment Russia is beaten, but not defeated.
    Ukraine has been fighting to keep Donbas and since April, when Ukrainian troops moved in and clashed with pro-Russian rebels. In three months of fighting over a thousand troops, police, civilians and rebels have died. The fighting has driven over 100,000 people from their homes and that could more than double as civilians flee the city of Donetsk. That could result in over 3 percent of the 6.6 million people in Donbas becoming refugees and that number could increase when the other rebel held city, Luhansk, is also besieged.

    Many of the Donbas refugees are ethnic Russians and they flee to Russia. This includes a growing number of former rebels who have quit their rebel organization in disgust or frustration at the recent decline in Russian support. Rebel morale is down and desertions (and sometimes surrenders to government forces) are up because the various rebel factions are arguing over what to do and who should be in charge. In the past Russia provided general guidance (and material support for that “guidance”) and the various rebel groups each did what they could to support the Russian plan. At the moment Russia no longer has a clear strategy for the Donbas rebellion, although that may change. And it is that hope that is keeping many of the remaining rebels fighting. Russian volunteers and some light weapons and ammo continue to cross the border into Donbas. But more substantial support requires Russian government cooperation and, for the moment, that cooperation has stopped. Some 90 percent of the pro-Russian rebels are ethnic Russians from Ukraine (mostly from Donbas, where the population is nearly 40 percent ethnic Russian). Unfortunately for the rebels, they do not have the support of most people in Donbas, not even most of the ethnic Russians.

    In one area Russian support for the Ukraine rebels continues. Russia still helps with the pro-rebel campaign on the Internet. This Information War type effort tries to convince people that what is going on in Donbas is not another Russian attempt to annex neighbouring territory but a legitimate uprising against a tyrannical Ukrainian government. This Information War campaign is not having much success and is mainly appreciated by rebel supporters (in Ukraine, Russia and elsewhere) who have already made up their minds.

    11 July 2014: In Ukraine government forces are attacking rebels at the Donetsk International Airport. Donetsk is one of the last two major city in eastern Ukraine (the Donbas) held by the rebels. The other rebel held city is Luhansk and it is under air and artillery attack.

    10 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels fired rockets at a government held border post on the Russian border, killing 23 Ukrainian troops and wounding about three times as many. Ukraine promised retaliation for this, the largest loss in one attack in Donbas so far. The casualties were caused by rockets brought in from Russia.

    9 July 2014: In Ukraine air force attacks on pro-Russian rebels in the Donbas left over fifty dead. Ukraine is using its air force to keep an eye on where the rebels are and then to bomb them.

    8 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels fell back into the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk as government forces swept through the Donbas countryside chasing rebels out of many towns and villages. This led the rebels and West European nations to urge the Ukraine government to agree to another ceasefire. The Ukrainians pointed out that the rebels had used previous ceasefires as opportunities to increase their military strength, not sit down and seriously try to work out a permanent peace. So Ukraine is keeping the pressure on until Donbas is free of pro-Russian rebels. That could take a while because the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk have to be taken from the rebels and that must be done with minimal damage to the cities. Bombing and shelling the cities would only cause more locals to back the rebels. So the cities will be surrounded and, in effect, undergo siege. This can take time, but it might persuade the rebels to negotiate an end to it all.

    7 July 2014: In Ukraine pro-Russian rebels have fled the city of Slaviansk and either deserted or headed for the city of Donetsk (100 kilometres to the south). Driving the rebels out of Slaviansk is the biggest victory yet for the government forces, which are now moving on to besiege Donetsk.

    4 July 2014: In Ukraine the government said it would consider ceasefire negotiations if the rebels stopped fighting. Many rebels are interested in negotiations, but are concerned about amnesty and avoiding prosecution for death and destruction they inflicted since April. The rebels are also split by leadership and strategy disputes. Ukraine is finding that there does not seem to be a single rebel leader to deal with anymore.

    3 July 2014: President Putin has called for new education efforts to indoctrinate Russian children to be more patriotic and to ignore foreign (mainly Western) influences. This is another attempt to revive Cold War era programs. The communist Soviet government spent a lot of time, money and effort on educating children to be pro-Soviet. It didn’t work then and is unlikely to work now. But this is the direction current Russian rulers want to take the country in.

    1 July 2014: In Ukraine the ten day ceasefire came to an end as the government forces resumed their offensive against the Donbas rebels.

    30 June 2014: The new leader of Islamic terrorists in the Caucasus (Ali Abu Mukhammad, also known as Aliaskhab Kebekov) has released an hour-long video in which is urges his followers to reduce civilian casualties (especially Moslem women and children) and not fight to the death when cornered. This is an admission of defeat and a decision to switch tactics. Islamic terrorists in the Caucasus will still use suicide bombs and attack security forces and local officials at every opportunity, but the strategy is now more long term and focused on reducing losses among Islamic terrorists and building up public support. Most people in the Caucasus are unhappy with local governments, which are corrupt and pro-Russian. Before the Islamic terrorists can take leadership of that resentment they have to shed their reputation of being mindless butchers who kill lots of civilians without seeming to have any impact on the corrupt local governments.

    28 June 2014: In Ukraine rebels in Donetsk released four OSCE (Organisation for Security and Co-operation) observers were taken prisoner in late May.

    27 June 2014: Ukraine signed a free trade agreement with the European Union (EU). It was a Ukrainian effort to sign such a deal last November that led to the Russian campaign to seize Crimea (which succeeded in March) and Donbas (which seems to be failing.) Russia protested the new deal with the EU, to no effect. Georgia and Moldova signed similar deals, despite sinister warnings by Russia not to.

    Ukraine extended the ceasefire in Donbas 72 hours in the hope that the rebels would agree to serious peace negotiations and end their violence against Ukrainian soldiers and police in the Donbas. Some rebels want to make peace but the majority do not and these hardliners are responsible for the sniper and mortar fire against government forces during the week long ceasefire.

    25 June 2014: NATO denounced Russia for continuing to support the Ukraine rebels after promising to withdraw such support. By the end of the month Russia had shut down most of that support, apparently because of the damage the Western economic sanctions were doing to the Russian economy.
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    John Pilger, always worth a read...

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ia-john-pilger
    A Nato Membership Action Plan is Washington's gift to the coup-regime in Kiev. In August, "Operation Rapid Trident" will put American and British troops on Ukraine's Russian border and "Sea Breeze" will send US warships within sight of Russian ports.
    Imagine the response if these acts of provocation, or intimidation, were carried out on America's borders.


    A third of the population of Ukraine are Russian-speaking and bilingual. They have long sought a democratic federation that reflects Ukraine's ethnic diversity and is both autonomous and independent of Moscow. Most are neither "separatists" nor "rebels" but citizens who want to live securely in their homeland. Separatism is a reaction to the Kiev junta's attacks on them, causing as many as 110,000 (UN estimate) to flee across the border into Russia. Typically, they are traumatised women and children.

    http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-r...aine-and-truth
    “- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

  9. #264
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    I see your intel dump and raise you one

    Message from Fyodor Berezin, June 25, 2014, 00:40

    Translated from Russian by Gleb Bazov

    Small Russian Village Saurovka and the Banderovite Abominations There is in Donbass an itty-bitty village – Saurovka. It’s right next to the Saur-Mogila Mound memorial. The Ukie army, being a direct successor to Hitlerite Wehrmacht, terribly hates Saur-Mogila, as it is a symbol of Russian valor in the Great Patriotic War. All the time their artillery and mortars lob shells directly at the memorial. But they cannot get any closer. On and around the Mound our fighters lie in wait. However, I am not here to talk about the defence of the memorial or of the [strategic] height.

    I will talk about the little village of Saurovka. It’s really small. There are only 50 or so houses [in the entire settlement]. One day, the pravoseki [Right Sector militants] came there. NazGuard [National Guard], Azov-2 and Dnepr-2. And then they instilled European values in the village. They cut out[, murdered] all the men. They would cut them alive. They would cut the arms, then the legs. Then the head.
    They did not cut the women – they raped them. And now they continue [to rape them], during the pauses between battles. Doubtlessly, the various fanboys of Europe and the Maidanites will say that these are made-up fairy tales. Nevertheless, all [that I said] is true. So, Messrs. Lyashko and Poroshenko, what was it that you were bleating about? A ceasefire? Something about how we need to disarm? There were no weapons in Saurovka …
    Take note, chocolate baron, truth is on our side, and, one day, we will come for you. Yes, you, personally!
    The forested area around Saur-Mogila continues to be replenshished with the fresh dead.
    The pravoseki are inhuman not only toward the Donbass residents. Even their own they consider nothing but garbage. They don’t bury them properly. They do not care. They throw some earth on them, and the job’s done. The green of the forest [is soaked] with the smell of dead flesh. Sometimes they even leave their guns with the dead. Why care, right? Amreeka sponsors them, they’ll throw something new their way or buy [weapons] from some Poles.
    They lob cluster shells at our guys. Not made in Ukie-stan. The shrapnel is such that, if it catches you, it will rip you up so that you can’t heal. A few days ago, militia fighters got a woman sniper with an “Utyes” [Note 1: NSV-12.7 “Utyes” machine gun]. Hello Poland! The girl was from there. She had the newest American automatic rifle 12.5mm calibre. We could not use the rifle. The heavy machine gun “Utyes” destroyed the [weapon].
    I have a feeling that the Saur-Mogila Mound memorial is again becoming a symbol of Russian valour in the struggle against fascism. A few day ago, the Nazis refused to attack our strategic height, and the pravoseki then starting shooting at their own – to whip up the attack.
    But then those [who were fired upon] got upset and started shooting back. Our fighters, looking from above, found this highly entertaining. If only the circus came by more often! However, this circus is not going to last long. Very soon we will push the Ukie-nazis out, from the outskirts of Saur-Mogila as well as from other places. Prepare your white shoes


    http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/201...-in-slavyansk/
    http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/201...-in-slavyansk/http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/slavyansk-refugee-remembers-brutal-execution/

    “- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

  10. #265
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    Good intel propaganda guys

  11. #266
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    could be worse , at least they dont have Tama iti running around their forest.....

    One thing for sure , Ukraine , the situation sux balls . IF its american fed ......thats just plain evil

    Not much we can do except ,,,A, dont believe a word of our media

    B, tell the powers that be , in no uncertain terms that we will NOT support the current situation ,,,,

    My question is ...IF they have been living in a sort of peace for ages ...how come now SH1t hits the fan ,,,,

    Somebody, some where is making some coin .......the fkr

    Stephen
    "Look, Madame, where we live, look how we live ... look at the life we have...The Republic has forgotten us."

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian d marge View Post

    My question is ...IF they have been living in a sort of peace for ages ...how come now SH1t hits the fan ,,,,

    Somebody, some where is making some coin .......the fkr

    Stephen
    Ukraine is basically fucked - it's been systematically looted by a succession of elected "leaders" - Oligarchs, who have shovelled billions into their own bank accounts over the last 20 yrs, have been corrupt as all fuck, and have left the country basically broke. There was a lot of industry in East Ukraine, which withered after the USSR broke up, what jobs there are are vanishing at an increasing rate, the population is getting steadily poorer...in short..ideal conditions for Nationalists and nazis to prosper and take advantage of the situation, allied with the fact West and East Ukraine have basically different roots and the nazis in the west hate the russian speakers in the East - and jews! One of the first acts of the new government was to ban russian as an official language.
    An ideal situation for the US and EU to take advantage of - it currently seems they are trying to provoke Russia to invade, so Russia can be totally marginalised, but, they aren't taking the bait, so things are getting more and more desperate - not that you'd know what's happening if you followed the western media - Ukraine government with it's neo nazis, good - "terrorist, seperatist, rebel scum, bad!
    Making coin......probably Poroshenko and his fellow mates...but there's not that much coin to extract
    “- He felt that his whole life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.”

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian d marge View Post
    IF its american fed ......thats just plain evil
    Taking a page out of Russia's book really.
    Islamist militants somehow ended up with T-72's and MIGS.

    I love how the whole world essentially is the Americans the French the English and the Russians in terms of wars and wars machines. The only exception to this rule seems to be Israel, and (starting to be) China.
    What a funny world we live in.
    Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashman View Post
    Good read. Ach, if the yanks quit war, their economy will tank.
    Isn't that like the Australians running out of dirt?
    UK running out of Taxes.
    China running out of slave labour.
    Or Japan running out of......ummm.....Friends.
    Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.

  15. #270
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    Japan loves itself
    "Look, Madame, where we live, look how we live ... look at the life we have...The Republic has forgotten us."

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