What say you - review of motorcycle licences

**swbarnett** · 9th December 2014, 16:28

Originally Posted by MrKiwi

There is quite a bit of research on the benefits of ABS on motorcycles coming from overseas. ABS is best suited to tarmac, marginal on gravel. The research indicates significant benefits from ABS, reducing both the severity and and number of accidents on tar seal roads. Much of the research is reporting up to 30-40% reductions in severity of injuries and number of fatalities.

Compared to what? I'll bet it wasn't the same bike in the same situation without ABS.

**Big Dog** · 9th December 2014, 17:23

Originally Posted by Gremlin

It's precisely why making it mandatory and non-switchable on adventure bikes is stupid.

What you want on gravel, is to lock the wheel. The sliding builds up loose material in front of the tyre and this is what slows you down. As above, the KTM 1190 has different modes, including one where ABS works on the front wheel, but is disabled for the rear, allowing you to lock and slide it.

Which firmly puts me back in the camp of ABS is only as good as its engineer and the fact that they need to make the best of all situations... which means averaging things out.

IMHO there will never be a better sensory system for braking than an experienced rider who has taken the time to do braking drills on differing surfaces.

Once you start talking about "changing algorithms" to suit conditions you also start talking about introducing software... Software means errors... sorry... but it does.

I have no doubt at all that if I had had ABS when I was learning I would have been able to avoid at the very least a few changes of undies. At best some very expensive lie downs.
Personally I think ABS is too immature a technology for me to buy a bike because it has it. I might buy a bike in spite of having it though, depending on intended use.

**Laava** · 9th December 2014, 17:29

Having very recently crashed on gravel, ploughing into a farm quad which turned in front of me, I can testify to the effectiveness of the ABS. There is no way a person who rides on the road all the time is going to regulate the brakes to avoid lockup in this situation. Ever. I would prefer the rear to be ABS free as well but meh.

**Gremlin** · 9th December 2014, 17:33

Originally Posted by Big Dog

IMHO there will never be a better sensory system for braking than an experienced rider who has taken the time to do braking drills on differing surfaces.

Actually, that's not good enough. Being mentally prepared, or practising emergency braking is good, but won't necessarily save you when a vehicle suddenly pulls out in front of you and you slam the brakes on in panic. There are actually different mental triggers for each situation.

Ultimately, for an average road rider riding on a road, yes, absolutely, ABS can stop the bike faster than you can when you need to panic brake. In a test situation, in good conditions, where the riders are prepared to emergency brake, then you might be able to outperform ABS, but in most normal situations, ABS does work better.

How many riders actually take their bikes off road/rough unsealed roads? Even BMW knows that most GS riders don't leave the tarmac. Yes, in most of those situations, ABS doesn't help much, but as long as it remains switchable, then those that are taking bikes off road normally know what they're doing, and would turn it off (as I do).

**Big Dog** · 9th December 2014, 17:53

Originally Posted by Gremlin

Actually, that's not good enough. Being mentally prepared, or practising emergency braking is good, but won't necessarily save you when a vehicle suddenly pulls out in front of you and you slam the brakes on in panic. There are actually different mental triggers for each situation.

Ultimately, for an average road rider riding on a road, yes, absolutely, ABS can stop the bike faster than you can when you need to panic brake. In a test situation, in good conditions, where the riders are prepared to emergency brake, then you might be able to outperform ABS, but in most normal situations, ABS does work better.

How many riders actually take their bikes off road/rough unsealed roads? Even BMW knows that most GS riders don't leave the tarmac. Yes, in most of those situations, ABS doesn't help much, but as long as it remains switchable, then those that are taking bikes off road normally know what they're doing, and would turn it off (as I do).

That's just it though. You have chosen a model you can switch it off when you don't want it, or you believe you can brake better than the ABS.

I am probably wrong and I don't care, rider aids remove some of the experience of riding. I don't mind if there is more experience added as a result or removing some there has to be balance.
E.g. The GS with its switchable ABS offers experiences my CB1300 is not able to while I am unwilling to be that cruel to it. E.G I reckon the CB would be next to useless on anything more off road than the road to Whatipu or if feeling really adventurous the off shoot up the hill (Don Mclean lookout?) which I am sure would be no more difficult on the GS than my driveway.
E.g. The Kawasaki concourse with it's transcontinental intentions. My CB could but no doubt with a great deal more rider fatigue.

**swbarnett** · 9th December 2014, 18:01

Originally Posted by Gremlin

panic brake.

There's the problem. I have only ever panic braked once in my life. I came off, learned from it and have never done so again.

Condition the sub-conscious and it takes over when the conscious mind is too slow.

**caspernz** · 9th December 2014, 19:14

Originally Posted by swbarnett

Presumeably you didn't move from non-ABS to the same bike with ABS?

Prior to buying my current bike (Busa with ABS) I did the test ride thing over a period of months, with various bikes being tried out. For me the safety net of ABS has merit, since while I consider myself a competent rider, it's in the unforeseen situations that ABS comes into its own. I'm not delusional enough to think I can do better than an ABS equipped machine under those unforeseen circumstances.

I look at the changes that have happened over the years with cars and trucks, ABS, traction control, roll stability etc and it's in some ways sad to see how slow this type of safety net technology has made its way to bikes.

So for my type of riding, sealed roads only but in all types of weather 24/7, it's just a no brainer to take the bike with ABS...end of story for me.

**swbarnett** · 9th December 2014, 22:18

Originally Posted by caspernz

So for my type of riding, sealed roads only but in all types of weather 24/7, it's just a no brainer to take the bike with ABS...end of story for me.

My bike is my primary transport and has been since 1982. My riding is the same as yours (with a rare bit of gravel now and then). When we were taught to ride we were taught to find the point just as the wheel starts to skid and ease off, rince and repeat. Sounds like ABS to me. Could ABS out-break me given the same conditions otherwise? I honestly don't know and doubt I'll ever find out. Do I think I need it? No. I've been in enough emergency braking situations to know that, at least for the way I ride, I can haul up the bike plenty fast enough as it is.

If you think that ABS helps and you want to use it I'm the first to say you should go for it. I'm not against ABS as such. I just don't think it's proven from a cost-benifit angle. And what I don't want to see is a risk homeostasis whereby the technology is used as a substitute for good training and conditioning. This has already happened far too much with other "safety" technologies.

The ABS argument is a lot like the ATGATT argument. It all boils down to how far you're willing to go towards total cotton-wool emersion and at what cost.

**Gremlin** · 9th December 2014, 23:27

Originally Posted by Big Dog

That's just it though. You have chosen a model you can switch it off when you don't want it, or you believe you can brake better than the ABS.

I know I can't brake better than ABS under normal road circumstances. The vast majority of the time ABS is left fully enabled (and it's enabled by default every time you turn it on).

However, on technical descents on loose material it's always turned off. The potential is there that I would be unable to brake and simply careen down the hill.

**Big Dog** · 10th December 2014, 06:09

Originally Posted by swbarnett

My bike is my primary transport and has been since 1982. My riding is the same as yours (with a rare bit of gravel now and then). When we were taught to ride we were taught to find the point just as the wheel starts to skid and ease off, rince and repeat. Sounds like ABS to me. Could ABS out-break me given the same conditions otherwise? I honestly don't know and doubt I'll ever find out. Do I think I need it? No. I've been in enough emergency braking situations to know that, at least for the way I ride, I can haul up the bike plenty fast enough as it is.

If you think that ABS helps and you want to use it I'm the first to say you should go for it. I'm not against ABS as such. I just don't think it's proven from a cost-benifit angle. And what I don't want to see is a risk homeostasis whereby the technology is used as a substitute for good training and conditioning. This has already happened far too much with other "safety" technologies.

The ABS argument is a lot like the ATGATT argument. It all boils down to how far you're willing to go towards total cotton-wool emersion and at what cost.

I can't speak for bikes because I don't know enough riders with abs or riders with both options. I have noticed amongst car drivers a trend of pushing the limits of safe following distances and generally driving harder with abs.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

**swbarnett** · 10th December 2014, 07:56

Originally Posted by Gremlin

I know I can't brake better than ABS under normal road circumstances.

Have you tested this? Given that you can turn it off you do have the opportunity, even if not under emergency circumstances.

**MrKiwi** · 10th December 2014, 16:26

Originally Posted by swbarnett

Compared to what? I'll bet it wasn't the same bike in the same situation without ABS.

Ummm, yes!

**Gremlin** · 10th December 2014, 16:39

Originally Posted by swbarnett

Have you tested this? Given that you can turn it off you do have the opportunity, even if not under emergency circumstances.

If mentally prepared etc, it's not a true road test. Yes, perhaps in this ideal situation I could but it would need to be a longer braking (giving you time to detect wheel slip, modulate, continue braking etc). Even from 100kph you can stop pretty quickly. Most of the time it's about anticipation, good following distances (ie, roadcraft) so I very seldom brake hard.

Remember that the BMW is a little different to normal bikes, having linked brakes and telelever front end which makes it unlikely the rear wheel will lift off the deck even under very hard braking.