Cancer and the drug companies

[bogan]

Isn't it funny just how far from the OP the thread has become?

It is still completely on track, you started a thread trying to bash some of the stupid members on this site (as most Edthreads do), now one of the most stupid here is getting bashed (it's you, in case that went over your head). Justice has been done. Science continues.

[Katman]

Isn't it funny just how far from the OP the thread has become? It's like few have actually read this and understood what it says so plainly.

Sorry, of course! This is KB after all...

There has been some really good posting by members on here that should be taken note of, but a few plainly betray their incomprehension to all.

Are you saying that absolutely no-one has ever experienced any benefit from any form of alternative cancer treatments?

[TheDemonLord]

No it doesn't mean that Gravity does not exist - but "Gravity" is just a word ... how do you know it actually has any connection to reality??? It appears to .. but it is just the best explanation at this time ... it may not have any connection to "truth" ...

Oh this old Chestnut:

Fine - The Truth here is the physical manifestations of shit that happens.

We created a word for the Shit that happens
We then (by science) created a model for predicting how Shit happens with reasonably accurate results.

It doesn't matter by what word we refer to a phenomenon...

So - you are basing the acceptance of Science on a Use value .. or maybe a value judgement ??? Science is based on a value judgement ???

Science is our best attempt at explaining and investigating the Shit that happens.

You seem to be accepting Lakatos' position ... the test of a science research project is whether it is producing results or not. That's definitely a use value/value judgement basis ... even Lakatos admits there is no way to prove "truth" ..

I'm with Feyerabend ... there is no real truth basis for science .. anything goes ...

A research project will always produce results - Science is trying to understand the results. The results happen regardless.

[Banditbandit]

Oh this old Chestnut:

It may be old - but it is not a "chestnut" ... it's the basis of post-modernism, building on an idea from Kant ... and applies equally to science - Kuhn, Feyerabend and Lakatos all agree that science is not based on a truth value - science is based in the discourse - whoever has the best argument wins .. science has a strict set of rules that govern what evidence counts in the argument, but it is an argument nonetheless.

Fine - The Truth here is the physical manifestations of shit that happens.

There are two basic assumptions there - and they are assumptions .. 1) there is a world external to us and 2) we can know the world external to us. (Read Sire for a start.)

We created a word for the Shit that happens

Read Richard Rorty's The Lignuistic Turn ... there is no way that we can show that the word is actually describing anything real.

We then (by science) created a model for predicting how Shit happens with reasonably accurate results.

It doesn't matter by what word we refer to a phenomenon...

No it doesn't matter what word we use .. but the way we observe phenomena is suspect ... and the way we break up the world into parts which we then label may or may not have anything to do with the actual reality.

Science is our best attempt at explaining and investigating the Shit that happens.

Yes ... that's basing science on a use value - science is useful .. is it an accurate description of reality ??? Who the hell knows ..

A research project will always produce results - Science is trying to understand the results. The results happen regardless.

Atomic theory was in abeyance as a research project because it did not produce results for a couple of hundred years ... then along comes the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th Century and Hello - atomic theory is back on the table and it is it ...

[Edbear]

It is still completely on track, you started a thread trying to bash some of the stupid members on this site (as most Edthreads do), now one of the most stupid here is getting bashed (it's you, in case that went over your head). Justice has been done. Science continues.

Lol! Here's a classic example of incomprehension in action!

Are you saying that absolutely no-one has ever experienced any benefit from any form of alternative cancer treatments?

For those like yourself who are one of the severest sufferers, if you had actually read the post, I have neither said nor implied any such thing.

[bogan]

Lol! Here's a classic example of incomprehension in action!

Ah, you're going for the other 'track' only you can see, which is that the thread is about showing how clever you are. Just like your tansfusion one, this too, is pointless drivel.

In any case I see you are providing examples of substance-less posts; and showing how to dodge the questions that you asked be put to you (see post 114). How about you save yourself some trouble, and face, and just skip to the bit where you stop replying to my posts forever (again)

[Katman]

For those like yourself who are one of the severest sufferers, if you had actually read the post, I have neither said nor implied any such thing.

You appear to be rubbishing any form of treatment that doesn't include chemo or radiation.

[Edbear]

Much as I try, and of course no-one is more trying than me, to clarify my views, some people just can't seem to get it.

I have explained my opinion on the difference between naturopathy and homeopathy and my views on placebos.

Much of the medicines we have and use come from nature by way of isolating the effective ingredients and synthesising them for mass production in order to meet demand. This too, costs megabucks for the drug companies. I have given examples of natural remedies that I know from experience and observation do work for some people.

My position on placebos is that for some people they seem to have a benefit. So if a placebo helps you, whether medically or otherwise, why not?

[buggerit]

More for the conspiracy theorists to chew on.

I was with another alternative therapies advocate over the weekend, and as soon as he started talking I pegged him as a conspiracy theorist. I was right of course as I have yet to find an exponent of alternative medicine who claims the drug companies are squashing cures for cancer, who isn't a conspiracy theorist.

However, what seems so bleeding obvious that these people can't undrstand is that in every claim of a therapy that "definitely cures cancer, and there are hundreds of cases proving it!" Not one requires drug companies to develop it.

All examples, like Black Salve, infusions of Vitamin. C and so on are freely available as evidenced by the sheer number of sufferers trying them!

If these alternative therapies genuinely cured cancer, everyone would be using them and getting cured without needing the conventional therapies like Radiation, surgery and Chemo.

My visitor claimed that only 2% survive beyond 5 years with conventional treatment but the figure was 30% for alternative therapies. Absolute bollox of course.

In short, if there existed a cure for cancer, cancer would be cured. I guarantee you, though, the conspiracy theorists/anti drug exponents will not be able to accept this. Just like any conspiracy theory, they will never change their blind minds.

Suggest you "research"glasshouses/stones

[Katman]

My position on placebos is that for some people they seem to have a benefit. So if a placebo helps you, whether medically or otherwise, why not?

Sounds like a classic Ed back-track to me.

[Edbear]

You appear to be rubbishing any form of treatment that doesn't include chemo or radiation.

People tend to see what they want to see and many are very quick to jump to erroneous conclusions based on prejudice.

I say what I mean and you need only to read what I actually say.

[Edbear]

Suggest you "research"glasshouses/stones

I suggest you read the words, pointing at each word to see if you can understand it.

Sounds like a back-track to me.

See my previous post.

[Edbear]

Ah, you're going for the other 'track' only you can see, which is that the thread is about showing how clever you are. Just like your tansfusion one, this too, is pointless drivel.

In any case I see you are providing examples of substance-less posts; and showing how to dodge the questions that you asked be put to you (see post 114). How about you save yourself some trouble, and face, and just skip to the bit where you stop replying to my posts forever (again)

Sorry, but it is fun to show you up. That post was another example of your inability to read and comprehend. I doubt you could go through the OP word by word and get even close to comprehending it.

[Paul in NZ]

Do alternative treatment options work? Well define an alternative treatment option?

If you use an alternative treatment to the exclusion of scientific options you may end up with a very poor result. If I go back via self-interest to diabetes for a model to explain myself.. I get by pretty well on insulin. My blood sugars are generally OK and my control is in the excellent bracket…

However – insulin isn’t the only strategy I use. I take drugs to manage my blood pressure as even a relatively normal blood pressure can cause me issues. I do a LOT of exercise just to stay in the normal zone. I eat properly and try very hard to restrain my baser urges of gluttony etc. It all works together… Just relying on insulin and pills won’t work.

Yet no doctor ever prescribed exercise or could tell me how to go about it (I need to constantly balance insulin with sugar as too much / not enough of either is disastrous) as a type 1…

So some of my practise is a little ‘experimental’ and un conventional.

But it works…

I have tried to help some along the path I have forged for myself. I’m not a teacher and to be fair the pupils were in the mess they were in because of multiple issues bought on by shitty life choices so my fail rate is pretty high. What most wanted was a pill that would negate all the bad things about diabetes and leave them free to continue not exercising and eating/drinking badly. Yeah – not gunna happen. If you don’t transform yourself to act better all the drug will do is delay the horrible consequences (and they are truly horrible)…. If you develop type 2 diabetes because you have a shitty diet and drink too much the drugs wont help if you don’t mend your ways… You really need to expand your knowledge and find a way that works for you because the tools in the doctors tool box are pretty limited. Call something alternative if you must but if it addresses and issue use it.. Just have a plan B too…

[buggerit]

I suggest you read the words, pointing at each word to see if you can understand it.


.

No thanks, I had a good education, but if it works for you, by all means.