Key Government out on its own. No one else to blame!

[Brian d marge]

Dairying is a huge source of NZs GDP the other farming land use options in Canterbury generally don't stack up.
Canterbury is generally the most productive dairy farming of all areas of NZ.
Its a simple question of the most economic land use. as an aside small enterprises generally are highly inefficient labour wise.
Simply Canterbury is one of the best palaces in NZ to dairy farm.
Aside From it abundant sources of off farm grazing options and supply to crops and by products.
It also offers the economies of scale and farm layout due to topography.

Taco bell has recently entered Japan, with prices that have the Americans complaining
The cited (they Taco bell) cited economies of scale

Now the little creatures , the ones that make the whole process tick , have no idea of this economies of scale , or of production efficiencies nor of how bat shyt ugly them is

They just fly around doing good shyt,

So, we must see that one vast sea of non native grass fed with nitrogen ( Im not sure what they use ) and that aquafied water ...or even wiamak water ...that its not exactly in Hamony with its surrounding ...and that aint good because whater ever is excess MUST be going somewhere and causing problems

Conversly those damn forests are non productive green things full of ugly wee creatures that eat shyt and sting people (ok the japanese pay huge dollars to see green trees and whales )

So there must be a balance between growing coffee for cash on a hilltop on kilamanjaro and sustainability ( non sustainability isnt an option in a closed loop system)

No from what I see , these young farmers are quite good at what they do.. but are being hamstrung by something ..my guess is farm prices land etc or by, over asset capitalisation (just a guess)

In the mean time, like my kidney ,or liver not sure which is fked , the land is getting sicker ...and like my liver /kidney its a silent disease...ya wont know untill its well fked ...( when I was younger you could drink from most rivers in NZ ...never heard of Gardia ... what ever that is )

The solution ??? I dont know ..let farmers be farmers within environmental constrains , and use the men from the ministry as the fountain of good practice that doesnt cost shytloads ...how hard can that be..................

Stephen

[husaberg]

Taco bell has recently entered Japan, with prices that have the Americans complaining
The cited (they Taco bell) cited economies of scale

Now the little creatures , the ones that make the whole process tick , have no idea of this economies of scale , or of production efficiencies nor of how bat shyt ugly them is

They just fly around doing good shyt,

So, we must see that one vast sea of non native grass fed with nitrogen ( Im not sure what they use ) and that aquafied water ...or even wiamak water ...that its not exactly in Hamony with its surrounding ...and that aint good because whater ever is excess MUST be going somewhere and causing problems

Conversly those damn forests are non productive green things full of ugly wee creatures that eat shyt and sting people (ok the japanese pay huge dollars to see green trees and whales )

So there must be a balance between growing coffee for cash on a hilltop on kilamanjaro and sustainability ( non sustainability isnt an option in a closed loop system)

No from what I see , these young farmers are quite good at what they do.. but are being hamstrung by something ..my guess is farm prices land etc or by, over asset capitalisation (just a guess)

In the mean time, like my kidney ,or liver not sure which is fked , the land is getting sicker ...and like my liver /kidney its a silent disease...ya wont know untill its well fked ...( when I was younger you could drink from most rivers in NZ ...never heard of Gardia ... what ever that is )

The solution ??? I dont know ..let farmers be farmers within environmental constrains , and use the men from the ministry as the fountain of good practice that doesnt cost shytloads ...how hard can that be..................

Stephen

The introduced grasses are bred in NZ mainly in Canterbury although the old Agrisseds is now Dutch owned we are the best in the world at developing grass.
We are the best in the world at turning this grass into products be it lamb Beef venison or milk products.
Same with the growing of timber only problem is the Pinus Radiata isn't worth the cost of harvesting now it not even including the 25 years to grow it.
All the farming systems in NZ use chemicals and chemical fertilisers.
The fertilisers used on Dairy farms are subject to nutrient models.The use of N is capped.

I take your point re the economies, they are what people are willing to pay.
But the dairy price received here is controlled by overseas auctions.

NZ dairy systems and other farming systems being grass based are actually the most sustainable in the world.
NZ has been very careful to lead the way in best practice with regards to water and to riparian strips planting of water ways bridging etc
In case you haven't noticed also that grass they grow turns C02 into oxygen.
The average irrigated pasture turns atmospheric sunlight and C02 into 18000KG/HA of Carbon based dry matter which is then efficiently turned into products.
Organics will unfortunately not feed the worlds population no mater how noble it appears to be.

Regrettably a lot of farmers are being pushed into unsustainable farming systems reliant on high levels of marginal brought in feed inputs and high prices.
These high input systems are being pushed by people that sell the systems and machinery and infrastructure such as indoor housing the latest downturn will I guess sort the wheat from the chaff.
Most farmers are not greedy, they do however need to make a living.
The returns in real terms have greatly slipped in the last 50 years yet the consumers cost has greatly risen. (the middle and the supermarkets are making the huge margins here)
They used to make a good living out of 60 cows in the 50's but now need 350 simply to tread water.
The real reason is also partly subsidies and tariffs that the UE and the USA and Japan have in place to protect their own unsustainable agriculture.

Irrigation is not a bad thing as long as the water is managed, note those pesky farmers have consents for its use, and they pay for it too, they are have restrictions placed on its use in shortages.
While I feel for the salmon and trout fisherman who enjoy the hobby of fishing both of these fish species are introduced and are hobbies.
Also the Gardia needs humans to complete its life cycle don't entirely blame the animals.

[Grumph]

Dairying is a huge source of NZs GDP the other farming land use options in Canterbury generally don't stack up.
Canterbury is generally the most productive dairy farming of all areas of NZ.
Its a simple question of the most economic land use. as an aside small enterprises generally are highly inefficient labour wise.
Simply Canterbury is one of the best palaces in NZ to dairy farm.
Aside From it abundant sources of off farm grazing options and supply to crops and by products.
It also offers the economies of scale and farm layout due to topography.

If you actually ask canterbury farmers - and the people working in the support industries - what you'll get is a roll of the eyes and a deep sigh...
The dairying is being govt led - not generally farmer led. It's well appreciated by those who live here that the infrastructure to support dairying is lagging. The farm expansion came first and only then were the roads looked at for instance. those long straight roads here were built for light weights. In Selwyn we are paying a roading rate which was supposed to be a short term fix but looks like being permanent now as govt is reluctant to come to the party...
The Central plains water scheme is not popular with people whose land has been taken and who like me live down hill from a ferkin big canal...
The gravel based soils drain very well, yes, but where to ? How many years before the superb drinking water ChCh enjoys is undrinkable ? The aquifers aren't very deep on the plains.
As an aside, the last time i was in hospital there was a dairy farmer from springston in my room. freely admitted he was on antidepressants and so close to being put off his farm it wasn't funny....

Oh, and due to the grass grub infestation of the 70's and 80's, DDT levels are still too high in a lot of areas to allow dairying anyway.

[unstuck]

Years ago I worked for an outfit called Topoclimate and we did soil mapping of the whole of the Southland and west otago areas, and found that most of the soil types were not suitable for intensive dairying due to the likely hood of compaction problems. These findings were made available to council and other local body agencies, but still they went ahead and handed out resource consents for intensive dairying operations. Now some of these farms are finding that the pugging and effluent run off due to compaction is going to cost them lots of money and environmental issues. But the banks and council are happy, because the books look good.

[husaberg]

If you actually ask canterbury farmers - and the people working in the support industries - what you'll get is a roll of the eyes and a deep sigh...
The dairying is being govt led - not generally farmer led. It's well appreciated by those who live here that the infrastructure to support dairying is lagging. The farm expansion came first and only then were the roads looked at for instance. those long straight roads here were built for light weights. In Selwyn we are paying a roading rate which was supposed to be a short term fix but looks like being permanent now as govt is reluctant to come to the party...
The Central plains water scheme is not popular with people whose land has been taken and who like me live down hill from a ferkin big canal...
The gravel based soils drain very well, yes, but where to ? How many years before the superb drinking water ChCh enjoys is undrinkable ? The aquifers aren't very deep on the plains.
As an aside, the last time i was in hospital there was a dairy farmer from springston in my room. freely admitted he was on antidepressants and so close to being put off his farm it wasn't funny....

Oh, and due to the grass grub infestation of the 70's and 80's, DDT levels are still too high in a lot of areas to allow dairying anyway.

Dairying is not government driven it is driven by being the best returns, So at best driven by the banks.
The farms are sold because the farm is either uneconomic or the farmer is going to retire.
The system of succession passing the farm on to the next generation is no longer commonly happening as frequently as the farmer has not made the same amount of money from farming but has had to rely on capital gains in land price.
If the economies were there to continue the land use then the land use would not change.

Unfortunately the roads will only get worse as the levies from the road user charges are not going to the councils now.
If sheep farmers could afford irrigation they would do it. as for depressing look at the returns for wool and long term for lamb.

Re the DDT only problem there is if those soils were as porous as everyone is making them out to be it should would be in your water by now.
The DDT was however driven by the government farm advisors it used to be spread with the Superphospate.
As for the Plains aquifers not being deep really 70 meters is deep, My old place was only about 2.5 meters and pure as te driven snow and my new place is 7.6 meters and full of iron.
Water schemes are generally not that popular with those affected by them weather they be for power generation or for irrigation anyway.
But Canterbury has a long history of them.

[husaberg]

Years ago I worked for an outfit called Topoclimate and we did soil mapping of the whole of the Southland and west otago areas, and found that most of the soil types were not suitable for intensive dairying due to the likely hood of compaction problems. These findings were made available to council and other local body agencies, but still they went ahead and handed out resource consents for intensive dairying operations. Now some of these farms are finding that the pugging and effluent run off due to compaction is going to cost them lots of money and environmental issues. But the banks and council are happy, because the books look good.

Was that the one that used the tiny tags matchbox's sized recorder that recorded the climate as well that was a great little scheme?
That was a bit late but the council did not approve some areas without consent conditions from memory.

[Grumph]

Local to me and downhill to the SW most wells are only 3.5 - 4 meters deep....
The deep ones are mainly toward the high banks of the Rakaia and Waimak.

[unstuck]

Was that the one that used the tiny tags matchbox's sized recorder that recorded the climate as well that was a great little scheme?
That was a bit late but the council did not approve some areas without consent conditions from memory.

Yep, the data loggers were stationary climate monitors, that took readings every hour. We had the job of physically taking soil samples on every farm in a grid pattern usually a couple of hundred meters apart, and meter square holes every couple of kms. Was a good way to see a Southland that not many people got to see.
There was one area that the council decided they were not going to issue consents for at the time (late 90's) because of the environmental impact implications.
But lo and behold, the area is now getting converted at a steady pace, and the eels and trout are gone within the last couple of years.

Tis where I got the nickname unstuck too.

[Ocean1]

Oh, and due to the grass grub infestation of the 70's and 80's, DDT levels are still too high in a lot of areas to allow dairying anyway.

I take it they did eventually fix the grass grub problem? How?

[husaberg]

I take it they did eventually fix the grass grub problem? How?

Porina which is a moth caterpillar which was what most of the DDT was used for here. Is controlled generally by a biological spray that stops it molting it works.
http://www.nufarm.co.nz/NZ/Dimilin2L
Grass grub which is a beetle larvae is killed the old fashioned way with a chemical that is an organophosphate insecticide.
Landcorp were doing a project to find another way in Westport a few years ago.

Funny enough they effect dry paddocks more than wet ones

[Swoop]

It just SO happens that these Idiots are Maori

But I shouldn't have needed to spell that out.

But.. "questioning" Maori? In this country??
Sheer madness. They know how to do everything correctly!

Hmm OK - but where do you think the rivers get their water from?

So, dairy farmers taking massive quantities of water out of the rivers is ok? To the detriment of the river, the fish life, the anglers, tourism, and everyone else who uses the resource, just so some tit-pullers can attempt to get some grass growing on soil that isn't suited to it.

[unstuck]

So, dairy farmers taking massive quantities of water out of the rivers is ok? To the detriment of the river, the fish life, the anglers, tourism, and everyone else who uses the resource, just so some tit-pullers can attempt to get some grass growing on soil that isn't suited to it.

Yep, according to the Southland district council, the income generated far outways all those other MINOR concerns. If you feel interested enough, look into the Athol and 5 rivers water resource debate. When I say debate, what I really mean is the council can do whatever the fuck they want and if you do not like it you can go fuck yourself.

And then maybe check out Wilkins farming ltd, the one Donna lofhagen married into, and see if you can find a connection between her appearance, her family connection with the council, and the Wilkins operation been given SPECIAL permits for water and gravel from the eyre, acton and mataura rivers.

[Luckylegs]

...or that Katie Bradford should not have been a journalist in the first place because of her mother.

Having seen and heard her mother, I'm surprised Katie exists at all!!

[oldrider]

Hmm OK - but where do you think the rivers get their water from?

So, dairy farmers taking massive quantities of water out of the rivers is ok? To the detriment of the river, the fish life, the anglers, tourism, and everyone else who uses the resource, just so some tit-pullers can attempt to get some grass growing on soil that isn't suited to it.

Er - I didn't actually say that was OK! - I was simply drawing attention to where we all get out fresh water from initially - rain! - Some of that is even polluted!

[husaberg]

But.. "questioning" Maori? In this country??
Sheer madness. They know how to do everything correctly!

So, dairy farmers taking massive quantities of water out of the rivers is ok? To the detriment of the river, the fish life, the anglers, tourism, and everyone else who uses the resource, just so some tit-pullers can attempt to get some grass growing on soil that isn't suited to it.

Not just dairy farmers use irrigation.
The levels at which water intakes are set to be draw down to are set by the council not the irrigation users.
The recreational fisherman debate is a crap one Fishing is a hobby the commercial guides and tourism from recreational angling bring into NZ economy about the same as a few dairy farms.
The soils are not the reason for irrigation, the lack of rainfall is.
Lastly the Cows actually arrived in NZ about 50 years before the trout did.