Westport - Bugger! Another ghost town in the making

[husaberg]

Spoken like many who have no idea about coals and how they're used.

Coal from the Stockton Mine is largely a coking coal. It's used as an ingredient for the manufacture of steel -- a reductant that removes oxygen from iron ore and adds carbon. Coking coals are not used for their energy value. It is extremely difficult to manufacture steel without coal.

Other coals from Stockton are used as ingredients in a variety of other products, such as cement ("clinker' is derived from coal), silicone, activated carbon for coal and water filters and also carbon for carbon fibre. There are few coals sources in the world for carbon fibre. Stockton is one of those.

Even in such high-end niche uses, coal is still a commodity. It is a low-margin business, not helped when it has to be railed too far to a capacity-constrained port and shipped in too small quantities to international clients.

Even as an energy source, coal labours under poor public perceptions, but is neither expensive nor polluting when used in modern technologies.

Yes and No. The coal that is generally exported and achieves the best returns are the coking coals.
So that is what the mines have been targeting. There are huge reserves of thermal coal available, much larger in fact than the coking coals.
These lower grade coals are already uncovered as part of the mining. They are then stockpiled and covered to prevent degradation.
West Coast coals are some of the highest quality in the world.
For that reason and to make the coal mining more viable a thermal power plant was originally to be built at Nakawau underneath Stockton (it was scuppered for environmental concerns in the 80's.)
As was the Hydro Scheme that was to be built by meridian just up the road.
The National grid has huge amounts of network capacity in this area as it was engineered to accommodate this in the first place.
There is (soon to be was) a cement factory nearby that consumes a lot of power.
The shipping for both is constrained by the Westport river mouth port.
Solid Energy was to build a international jetty at Granity.
This was scuppered by a deal from the rail network, Port Littleton and Canterbury. They were against it as they receive coal levies.
Note the West Coast does not get any levies.
Coal became less viable after the Carbon Tax scheme was introduced. Anyone know where that money goes?

The West Coast also has huge Iron reserves which could form a huge industry in itself. It will never happen (environmental concerns from Auckland will stop that)
There is still over 50 years left of Limestone left at Cape Fowlwind but the factory uses a inefficient wet method.
It does make some of the best cement in the world but it has not been maintained and upgraded as it should have been over the last 50 years of multiple ownership.
Holcim was to build a new cement factory in Oamaru but now just intends to ship in cement from China. (Quick buck)

[Robbo]

Coal became less viable after the Carbon Tax scheme was introduced. Anyone know where that money goes?

Carbon Tax? A reliable source from that lovely Green party told me that they collect large amounts of cash and put it into a wicker basket and attach it to a hydrogen filled balloon and send it off into oblivion and this then makes everything alright.

[Ocean1]

We don't make shit in NZ, we import low cost cheap rubbish with a 100% markup and export commodities for 50% of their value without seeing it anywhere near our books.

I have a cunning plan, let's fail to make life untenable for manufacturers in NZ!

Too radical?

[Swoop]

OR we could sell it for a $1 to an aussie company who then strips all the assets and buy it back for a few hundred mill a couple of years later.

You will have to be a labour supporter/member to do that sort of stupidity...

7? There are 50 individual volcanoes within Auckland's boundaries.

None of them have ever erupted twice.
The next one will be near Mt Eden.

Would carbon fibre manufacture, and associated end products be a viable industry for the coast?

No. They are interlinked with other professions. Boatbuilders use a lot in both hull and also mast manufacture but these are separated considerably. The CF has to be "prepared" (for want of a better term) raw, cloth, pre-preg, etc, etc prior to use. There is no problem with component manufacture happening on the coast, but the "tyrrany of distance" then attacks those away from Auckland's manufacture base. Sadly.
Getting industries out of AK would be superb for all involved.

[Ocean1]

You will have to be a labour supporter/member to do that sort of stupidity...


None of them have ever erupted twice.
The next one will be near Mt Eden.


No. They are interlinked with other professions. Boatbuilders use a lot in both hull and also mast manufacture but these are separated considerably. The CF has to be "prepared" (for want of a better term) raw, cloth, pre-preg, etc, etc prior to use. There is no problem with component manufacture happening on the coast, but the "tyrrany of distance" then attacks those away from Auckland's manufacture base. Sadly.
Getting industries out of AK would be superb for all involved.

There were moves afoot to establish a small ship/boat building hub in Wgtn a few years ago, was tied in with the frigate purchase, a reciprocal supply deal.

Helen didn't like the idea, something about not profiting from the tools of war or somesuch drivel. Yet another potentially useful industry stillborn due to political fuckwittedness.

Edit: it's also used to build rockets, a local growth industry...

[husaberg]

There were moves afoot to establish a small ship/boat building hub in Wgtn a few years ago, was tied in with the frigate purchase, a reciprocal supply deal.

Helen didn't like the idea, something about not profiting from the tools of war or somesuch drivel. Yet another potentially useful industry stillborn due to political fuckwittedness.

Edit: it's also used to build rockets, a local growth industry...

The best local example was the scuppering of a hydro project here because it would have flooded 20o hectares of DOC land (that was all modified and covered with Gorse)

Electricity—Dobson Hydro Scheme


5. Hon KEN SHIRLEY (Deputy Leader—ACT NZ) to the Minister of Conservation: Following his comments on National Radio on 16 April 2003 and in question time yesterday relating to the Dobson hydroelectric scheme, will he accept that when he said: “This particular site, because of its ecological values that are fairly unique on the West Coast, is a site worth preserving. We’ve been down this path … this project has already been to the High Court, it has been rejected.”, he was not referring to the Dobson hydroelectric scheme and that the key reason the Dobson scheme is not progressing is because he is not prepared to exercise the discretionary powers contained in the Conservation Act 1987?

Hon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation) : The Conservation Act does not give the Minister any discretion to remove land from ecological areas. The land still has the values it was protected for in the first place. As I made clear in the House yesterday, the law regarding the disposal of conservation land has been tested once already in the High Court in the Buller electricity case, when the court upheld the decision of the Hon Denis Marshall to decline a proposal to flood conservation land for a hydro scheme.

Hon Ken Shirley: Is the Minister aware of section 18(7) of the Conservation Act, which clearly gives the Minister of Conservation discretionary powers to revoke designations under the Conservation Act, and that that provision was specifically put in the Conservation Act to allow situations like the Dobson scheme to proceed on the conservation estate?

Hon CHRIS CARTER: That member’s interpretation of the Conservation Act is not one that is upheld by my department or myself.

Nanaia Mahuta: Why was the Card Creek ecological area originally protected?

Hon CHRIS CARTER: In 1983 the then National Government, led by the late Rt Hon Rob Muldoon, proudly protected that area for the express purpose of, and I quote from the Gazette notice, “preserving an example of forest in a wide valley floor, including nikau and an unusually high proportion of kahikatea and matai”. It is that very valley floor forest, described by the Hon Nick Smith as mostly gorse, that would be destroyed.

Hon Dr Nick Smith: Why did the Minister state in his press release yesterday that that land was, in terms of the land swap, of higher value than that which was proposed to be swapped for it, when the Department of Conservation’s own report, done when Helen Clark was Minister of Conservation, states exactly the opposite of that; in fact, can I quote from the report done at that time, which states that the area to be swapped is of national conservation importance, is a crucial wildlife habitat, and has significant scientific values and high landscape values, while at the same time the land in question that would be flooded was allocated to Timberlands West Coast because it was of low conservation value?

Hon CHRIS CARTER: The area that will be flooded is in the Card Creek ecological area, an area that was gazetted in 1983. It was not transferred to Timberlands. May I have an opportunity to describe the Mount Buckley area, the area that is proposed for the swap. I asked the Department of Conservation to give me a brief description of it. The total block is 720 hectares, of which 500 hectares is logged podocarp hardwood beech forest that has a canopy of 50 years or more. That is quite good forest. The additional 200 hectares is land that was logged in the 1970s and 1980s. It is bisected by a four-wheel drive track and has a power line running through it. It has considerably lower ecological values than the area that would be destroyed.

Hon Dr Nick Smith: Can the Minister explain to the House which is the Government’s position in respect of Dobson: the position that was expressed by Damien O’Connor to the local media in his area yesterday that the Government is open-minded about the Dobson scheme, or the position that he has expressed, as Minister, that it is dead in the water?

Hon CHRIS CARTER: I repeat to the House that under existing legislation I cannot swap land that has ecological value status, unless that land loses its conservation value.

Hon Roger Sowry: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister was asked a very simple question about the Government’s position—the position outlined by Damien O’Connor in the local newspaper, or the position that the Minister has outlined. The Minister did not talk about that, at all, but talked about whether he could swap land. We have heard that answer before. He was asked what the Government’s position is.

Mr SPEAKER: No, the Minister gave the Government’s position. He is the Minister concerned with that matter.

Rt Hon Winston Peters: Can the Minister tell the House today why it was that yesterday he claimed his comments did not relate to the Dobson hydroelectric scheme, or is it a case of one of two things: he was mistaken or he was plain lying?

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/de...s-to-ministers

4. GORDON COPELAND (United Future) to the Minister of Conservation: With the worsening electricity crisis and concerns for adequate electricity supply in future years, will he reconsider amending the Conservation Act 1987 to enable the proposed Dobson hydro scheme to go ahead as the proposed scheme is in a high rainfall area; if not, why not?

Hon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation) : No, I will not. The proposed power scheme would take some time to construct and is irrelevant in terms of the electricity situation this winter. The modest amount of power likely from this scheme does not, in any case, justify the flooding of an area of valley-floor kahikatea, and matai forest protected within an ecological area and established by the National Government in 1983.
http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/bu...n-hydro-scheme

11. Dobson Hydro Dam—Ecology


11. Hon Dr NICK SMITH (National—Nelson) to the Minister of Conservation: Does he agree with the statement on National Radio last Wednesday by his ministerial colleague Hon Damien O’Connor, in respect of the conservation land required for the Dobson hydro power scheme, “Now I’m sure that a suitable trade can be arrived at.”; if so, what steps is the Government taking to enable a suitable trade of land?

Hon CHRIS CARTER (Minister of Conservation) : No, I am not sure that a suitable trade can be arrived at. Finding a suitable trade for an area of forest protected by a National Government that is one of the best remaining examples of a particular forest type and that has rich bird life values seems exceptionally unlikely, nor is such a trade legally possible for a gazetted ecological area.

Hon Dr Nick Smith: Does the statement made by Government Minister Damien O’Connor: “Yes, the Dobson scheme makes good sense. I support in principle hydro development, and it is a good way to supply electricity to New Zealand, and particularly when it is close to the source of demand. I support the scheme.” represent Government policy; if it does not, can we believe anything that Damien O’Connor says as a Minister representing the Government?

Hon Dr Michael Cullen: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The last part of the question is out of order. This Minister has no responsibility in that respect.

Mr SPEAKER: Yes, the last part is out of order, but the rest of the question is in order.

Hon CHRIS CARTER: The member for West Coast - Tasman is a fine advocate for his local area. He and I often discuss areas of mutual interest. We sometimes have a different emphasis on things. I will continue to discuss the issues with him.

Dave Hereora: What are the wildlife values of the area proposed for flooding?

Hon CHRIS CARTER: In the early 1980s the former Wildlife Service identified these valley floor forests as having the richest known native bird life, in terms of species, diversity, and abundance, in the whole of North Westland. That was one of the key reasons why the area was protected by a National Government. Indeed, Dr Smith himself recognised the reserve’s native wildlife values when he extended the area in 1997.

Hon Dr Nick Smith: Supplementary—

Mr SPEAKER: I will come to the member. Could he just calm down.

Hon Dr Nick Smith: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr SPEAKER: The member will please be seated for a moment. The member constantly interjects. I have counted about 40 today. He will get his question. Other members are entitled by party to ask questions.

Deborah Coddington: Does the Minister think it is fair that people living in the top of the South Island face power cuts and cold showers, while he will not allow a West Coast 65-megawatt power station to proceed, just so that he can woo so-called Green votes in Auckland?

Hon CHRIS CARTER: There are a number of power generation options in the northern South Island, from a coal-fired power station to alternative hydro schemes, so I do not agree that the only power option is the Dobson dam, which would generate about 60 megawatts of power.
http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/bu...2%80%94ecology

[neels]

I love visiting the west coast, and it saddens me greatly that Westport has the look of a dying town, although the Denniston Dog is still going strong.

Successive governments have restricted the employment options and any development, usually to appease the greenies and their love of snails and trees (have they ever been to the west coast, they're not short of trees over there for fucks sake), it is a pity for the people trying to scratch a living over there.

Anyone who has not been for a visit should get their arse over there, some of the best motorcycling roads in the country, as long as you don't get too distracted by the amazing scenery. Spend a weekend staying/walking/drinking in Reefton, it's good for your soul.

One can only hope that things such as the old ghost road will get things going a bit more (and the tree huggers keep trying to oppose that too), sadly I can see the only real future is reliant on visitor dollars rather than any proper industry.

[Banditbandit]

You will have to be a labour supporter/member to do that sort of stupidity...

Are you being sarcastic or ironic ??? I can't tell which (I'll give you the benefit by assuming you are not stupid enough to think that's a factual statement).

[husaberg]

Are you being sarcastic or ironic ??? I can't tell which (I'll give you the benefit by assuming you are not stupid enough to think that's a factual statement).

Its a bit backwards granted, but hello 1987...........
It was slightly more right wing than Genghis Kahn, but it was the Labour Party.
I have never really figured out how Rodger Douglas, Richard Prebble, Ken Shirley David Caygill got into the Labour party though.

[ktm84mxc]

My fathers family have lived and worked on the coast from the early/mid 1800's and did the local jobs eg Coal & gold mining, farming, Publicans, Roading contractors , Wharfs , Police, Public service etc it's a sad day for the Coast they've lost Forestry, Mining , Cement works and Tourism is seasonal at best. Whats the Governments answer ? help rebuild ChCh? yeah right.
We used to own/run a large Slate mine up the Gorge close to Hawkes Crag , good quality and used by kids at school before pencil and paper till old Dick Seddon decreed all kids will have pencil and paper, it slowly died out . A survey in the 1920's estimated you could remove 120,000 tons a year and it would have a life of approx 150 yrs , only problem now it's in conservation land.

[Paul in NZ]

There was a piece of TV the other night - the local mayor/councillor/big wig / buggered if I know was commenting that they would need some kind of alternative primary employment until Westport kicked off as an IT hub..... erm..... OK....

I'm guess that what he meant was that local conditions are now so depressed on the Coast that call centres will relocate there from India and the Philippines due to the low wages ....

[Banditbandit]

My fathers family have lived and worked on the coast from the early/mid 1800's and did the local jobs eg Coal & gold mining, farming, Publicans, Roading contractors , Wharfs , Police, Public service etc it's a sad day for the Coast they've lost Forestry, Mining , Cement works and Tourism is seasonal at best. Whats the Governments answer ? help rebuild ChCh? yeah right.
We used to own/run a large Slate mine up the Gorge close to Hawkes Crag , good quality and used by kids at school before pencil and paper till old Dick Seddon decreed all kids will have pencil and paper, it slowly died out . A survey in the 1920's estimated you could remove 120,000 tons a year and it would have a life of approx 150 yrs , only problem now it's in conservation land.

Hang on - are you suggesting that you still should be mining slate to provide writing materials for schools?

[husaberg]

Hang on - are you suggesting that you still should be mining slate to provide writing materials for schools?

Nice spotting Interestingly pretty close to there is a easily accessible extremely high grade Yellow cake Uranium deposit, We are not allowed to mine that one either.
Also it has been announced there has been a cull at Solid Energies head office 75%.
They are saying look you guys in the mines that are operating only lost 50% of the employees so we are hurting more lol
They don't consider it relevant to include the Hundreds of contractors or the staff in the mines they shut as being pertinent to the figures.

My fathers family have lived and worked on the coast from the early/mid 1800's and did the local jobs eg Coal & gold mining, farming, Publicans, Roading contractors , Wharfs , Police, Public service etc it's a sad day for the Coast they've lost Forestry, Mining , Cement works and Tourism is seasonal at best. Whats the Governments answer ? help rebuild ChCh? yeah right.
We used to own/run a large Slate mine up the Gorge close to Hawkes Crag , good quality and used by kids at school before pencil and paper till old Dick Seddon decreed all kids will have pencil and paper, it slowly died out . A survey in the 1920's estimated you could remove 120,000 tons a year and it would have a life of approx 150 yrs , only problem now it's in conservation land.

What was the mine because Heaphy's at Berlins is still going privately.

[98tls]

Nice spotting Interestingly pretty close to there is a easily accessible extremely high grade Yellow cake Uranium deposit, We are not allowed to mine that one either.
Also it has been announced there has been a cull at Solid Energies head office 75%.
They are saying look you guys in the mines that are operating only lost 50% of the employees so we are hurting more lol
They don't consider it relevant to include the Hundreds of contractors or the staff in the mines they shut as being pertinent to the figures.



What was the mine because Heaphy's at Berlins is still going privately.

Out of interest is the pub still going?

[husaberg]

Out of interest is the pub still going?

Not as a pub I don't think, it was for a time reopened as one and spruced up as a pub campgrounds Café it might still be a café or for the rafting company I don't often go that way though.
They had a loan from the Development trust but went under at one stage.
The Jacksons Pub is open again and has been all done up.