The fascist regime that made you a moron: Thanks dJonkey

[Banditbandit]

Christian Atheists?!?





Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck


It is all starting to make sense now

Yeah ... Christian atheists are quite particular about the God they do not believe in.

[mashman]

The Germans are not imposing austerity.
All they are asking is that instead of the Greeks taking the bailout money (to pay off debt) and then doing nothing (like last time), they want actual guarantees that the Greeks will generate some money and be able to get themselves back out of the financial hole they have made for themselves.

An entire range of things could be done, but your average Greek person is used to an easy lifestyle with low taxes and an early retirement, so doesn't want to be "austere" at any stage of the game.
Ze Chermans just want to know they will get their Euro's back eventually.

They got themselves into a financial hole Most of the "bailout" money never went to Greece

Apparently your average Greek works the longest hours out of all EU countries... and are you saying that Ze Chermans are the ESM?

Has Ocean hacked your account?

[mashman]

Polands up in arms i see

https://youtu.be/CNUFpvW2fv4



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lol... and then he apologised. Pussy whipped bitches!

[Brian d marge]

The Germans are not imposing austerity.
All they are asking is that instead of the Greeks taking the bailout money (to pay off debt) and then doing nothing (like last time), they want actual guarantees that the Greeks will generate some money and be able to get themselves back out of the financial hole they have made for themselves.

An entire range of things could be done, but your average Greek person is used to an easy lifestyle with low taxes and an early retirement, so doesn't want to be "austere" at any stage of the game.
Ze Chermans just want to know they will get their Euro's back eventually.

Would you like to Join me in Rehab , The remedial reading class is in the same building. Might help you with you grasp on current events

And the 50 bn Euros ..for the privatisation fund ,,,,,was the same price as the offered for the port of Piraeus back in 2008 ....MORE IMPORTANT is the 5 year term ...imposed

• How did Greece get to this point?
  Greece became the epicenter of Europe’s debt crisis after Wall Street imploded in 2008. With global financial markets still reeling, Greece announced in October 2009 that it had been understating its deficit figures for years, raising alarms about the soundness of Greek finances.
  Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.
  To avert calamity, the so-called troika — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission — issued the first of two international bailouts for Greece, which would eventually total more than 240 billion euros, or about $264 billion at today’s exchange rates.
  The bailouts came with conditions. Lenders imposed harsh austerity terms, requiring deep budget cuts and steep tax increases. They also required Greece to overhaul its economy by streamlining the government, ending tax evasion and making Greece an easier place to do business.
• If Greece has received billions in bailouts, why is there still a crisis?
  The money was supposed to buy Greece time to stabilize its finances and quell market fears that the euro union itself could break up. While it has helped, Greece’s economic problems haven’t gone away. The economy has shrunk by a quarter in five years, and unemployment is above 25 percent.
  The bailout money mainly goes toward paying off Greece’s international loans, rather than making its way into the economy. And the government still has a staggering debt load that it cannot begin to pay down unless a recovery takes hold.
  Many economists, and many Greeks, blame the austerity measures for much of the country’s continuing problems. The leftist Syriza party rode to power this year promising to renegotiate the bailout; Mr. Tsipras said that austerity had created a “humanitarian crisis” in Greece.
  But the country’s exasperated creditors, especially Germany, blame Athens for failing to conduct the economic overhauls required under its bailout agreement. They don’t want to change the rules for Greece.
  
  The Greek debt swindle was classic. In 2009 Greece's debt was $300 billion. It then "got" two huge bailouts in 2010 and 2012, of about $140 billion each. Less than 10% of that $275 billion stayed in Greece and was spent by the Greek government; more than 90% went directly and immediately to Deutsche Bank, HSBC, JPMorgan Chase, and their fellow sharks, with small amounts crumbling to the hedge funds swimming alongside. Former Greek Labor and Social Security Minister Louka Katseli has given documentation that the Greek government actually got to spend or invest just 3% of that $275 billion
  
  Doubts about Greece’s fiscal responsibility gained ground after the government of Costas Karamanlis in 2004 disclosed that its socialist predecessor had cheated on its euro-entry exam in 2000. The country was able to enter the currency bloc after claiming its deficit was less than 1 percent of gross domestic product, well within the bloc’s 3 percent threshold.
  European Commission reports have since revealed Greece’s budget hasn’t been within the 3 percent limit a single year since its accession.
  An error frequently made in press reports, is the confusion of the discussion regarding Greece’s Eurozone entry with the controversy regarding usage of derivatives’ deals with U.S. Banks by Greece and other Eurozone countries to artificially reduce their reported budget deficits. A currency swap arranged with Goldman Sachs allowed Greece to 'hide' 2.8 billion Euros of debt, however, this affected deficit values after 2001 (when Greece had already been admitted into the Eurozone) and is not related to Greece’s Eurozone entry.
  
  Goldman Bet Against Entire European Nations - Who Were Clients - the Same Way It Bet Against Its Subprime Mortgage Clients
  
  It is well-documented that big banks like Goldman Sachs made money by betting against investments which they themselves bundled and sold to their own clients, such as packages of subprime mortgage-related products such as collateralized debt obligations.
  
  This practice not only was illegal and unethical, but actually worsened the subprime crisis. See this, this, this, this and this.
  But did you know that the big banks did the same thing with entire European nations?
  As Andrew Gavin Marshall notes:
  Greece has a total debt of roughly 330 billion euros (or U.S. $473 billion).[New York Times] So how did this debt get out of control? As it turned out, major U.S. banks, specifically J.P. Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs, “helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules.” The deficit rules in place would slap major fines on euro member states that exceeded the limit for the budget deficit of 3% of GDP (gross domestic product), and that the total government debt must not exceed 60% of GDP. Greece hid its debt through “creative accounting,” and in some cases, even left out huge military expenditures. While the Greek government pursued its “creative accounting” methods, it got more help from Wall Street starting in 2002, in which “various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future.” Put simply, with the help of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase, Greece was able to hide its debt in the future by transferring it into derivatives. A large deal was signed with Goldman Sachs in 2002 involving derivatives, specifically, cross-currency swaps, “in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.” The banks helped Greece devise a cross-currency swap scheme in which they used fictional exchange rates, allowing Greece to swap currencies and debt for an additional credit of $1 billion. Disguised as a ‘swap,’ this credit did not show up in the government’s debt statistics. As one German derivatives dealer has stated, “The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps.”[Spiegel]
  
  
  In the same way that homeowners take out a second mortgage to pay off their credit card debt, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase and other U.S. banks helped push government debt far into the future through the derivatives market. This was done in Greece, Italy, and likely several other euro-zone countries as well. In several dozen deals in Europe, “banks provided cash upfront in return for government payments in the future, with those liabilities then left off the books.” Because the deals are not listed as loans, they are not listed as debt (liabilities), and so the true debt of Greece and other euro-zone countries was and likely to a large degree remains hidden. Greece effectively mortgaged its airports and highways to the major banks in order to get cash up-front and keep the loans off the books, classifying them as transactions.[New York Times]
  
  
  Further, while Goldman Sachs was helping Greece hide its debt from the official statistics, it was also hedging its bets through buying insurance on Greek debt as well as using other derivatives trades to protect itself against a potential Greek default on its debt. So while Goldman Sachs engaged in long-term trades with Greek debt (meaning Greece would owe Goldman Sachs a great deal down the line), the firm simultaneously was betting against Greek debt in the short-term, profiting from the Greek debt crisis that it helped create.[Business Insider]

[TheDemonLord]

Would you like to Join me in Rehab , The remedial reading class is in the same building. Might help you with you grasp on current events

And the 50 bn Euros ..for the privatisation fund ,,,,,was the same price as the offered for the port of Partras back in 2008 ....MORE IMPORTANT is the 5 year term ...imposed

• How did Greece get to this point?
  Greece became the epicenter of Europe’s debt crisis after Wall Street imploded in 2008. With global financial markets still reeling, Greece announced in October 2009 that it had been understating its deficit figures for years, raising alarms about the soundness of Greek finances.
  Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.
  To avert calamity, the so-called troika — the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and the European Commission — issued the first of two international bailouts for Greece, which would eventually total more than 240 billion euros, or about $264 billion at today’s exchange rates.
  The bailouts came with conditions. Lenders imposed harsh austerity terms, requiring deep budget cuts and steep tax increases. They also required Greece to overhaul its economy by streamlining the government, ending tax evasion and making Greece an easier place to do business.
  
  
• If Greece has received billions in bailouts, why is there still a crisis?
  The money was supposed to buy Greece time to stabilize its finances and quell market fears that the euro union itself could break up. While it has helped, Greece’s economic problems haven’t gone away. The economy has shrunk by a quarter in five years, and unemployment is above 25 percent.
  The bailout money mainly goes toward paying off Greece’s international loans, rather than making its way into the economy. And the government still has a staggering debt load that it cannot begin to pay down unless a recovery takes hold.
  Many economists, and many Greeks, blame the austerity measures for much of the country’s continuing problems. The leftist Syriza party rode to power this year promising to renegotiate the bailout; Mr. Tsipras said that austerity had created a “humanitarian crisis” in Greece.
  But the country’s exasperated creditors, especially Germany, blame Athens for failing to conduct the economic overhauls required under its bailout agreement. They don’t want to change the rules for Greece.
  
  The Greek debt swindle was classic. In 2009 Greece's debt was $300 billion. It then "got" two huge bailouts in 2010 and 2012, of about $140 billion each. Less than 10% of that $275 billion stayed in Greece and was spent by the Greek government; more than 90% went directly and immediately to Deutsche Bank, HSBC, JPMorgan Chase, and their fellow sharks, with small amounts crumbling to the hedge funds swimming alongside. Former Greek Labor and Social Security Minister Louka Katseli has given documentation that the Greek government actually got to spend or invest just 3% of that $275 billion
  
  Doubts about Greece’s fiscal responsibility gained ground after the government of Costas Karamanlis in 2004 disclosed that its socialist predecessor had cheated on its euro-entry exam in 2000. The country was able to enter the currency bloc after claiming its deficit was less than 1 percent of gross domestic product, well within the bloc’s 3 percent threshold.
  European Commission reports have since revealed Greece’s budget hasn’t been within the 3 percent limit a single year since its accession.
  An error frequently made in press reports, is the confusion of the discussion regarding Greece’s Eurozone entry with the controversy regarding usage of derivatives’ deals with U.S. Banks by Greece and other Eurozone countries to artificially reduce their reported budget deficits. A currency swap arranged with Goldman Sachs allowed Greece to 'hide' 2.8 billion Euros of debt, however, this affected deficit values after 2001 (when Greece had already been admitted into the Eurozone) and is not related to Greece’s Eurozone entry.
  
  Goldman Bet Against Entire European Nations - Who Were Clients - the Same Way It Bet Against Its Subprime Mortgage Clients
  
  It is well-documented that big banks like Goldman Sachs made money by betting against investments which they themselves bundled and sold to their own clients, such as packages of subprime mortgage-related products such as collateralized debt obligations.
  
  This practice not only was illegal and unethical, but actually worsened the subprime crisis. See this, this, this, this and this.
  But did you know that the big banks did the same thing with entire European nations?
  As Andrew Gavin Marshall notes:
  Greece has a total debt of roughly 330 billion euros (or U.S. $473 billion).[New York Times] So how did this debt get out of control? As it turned out, major U.S. banks, specifically J.P. Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs, “helped the Greek government to mask the true extent of its deficit with the help of a derivatives deal that legally circumvented the EU Maastricht deficit rules.” The deficit rules in place would slap major fines on euro member states that exceeded the limit for the budget deficit of 3% of GDP (gross domestic product), and that the total government debt must not exceed 60% of GDP. Greece hid its debt through “creative accounting,” and in some cases, even left out huge military expenditures. While the Greek government pursued its “creative accounting” methods, it got more help from Wall Street starting in 2002, in which “various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future.” Put simply, with the help of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase, Greece was able to hide its debt in the future by transferring it into derivatives. A large deal was signed with Goldman Sachs in 2002 involving derivatives, specifically, cross-currency swaps, “in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.” The banks helped Greece devise a cross-currency swap scheme in which they used fictional exchange rates, allowing Greece to swap currencies and debt for an additional credit of $1 billion. Disguised as a ‘swap,’ this credit did not show up in the government’s debt statistics. As one German derivatives dealer has stated, “The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps.”[Spiegel]
  
  
  In the same way that homeowners take out a second mortgage to pay off their credit card debt, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase and other U.S. banks helped push government debt far into the future through the derivatives market. This was done in Greece, Italy, and likely several other euro-zone countries as well. In several dozen deals in Europe, “banks provided cash upfront in return for government payments in the future, with those liabilities then left off the books.” Because the deals are not listed as loans, they are not listed as debt (liabilities), and so the true debt of Greece and other euro-zone countries was and likely to a large degree remains hidden. Greece effectively mortgaged its airports and highways to the major banks in order to get cash up-front and keep the loans off the books, classifying them as transactions.[New York Times]
  
  
  Further, while Goldman Sachs was helping Greece hide its debt from the official statistics, it was also hedging its bets through buying insurance on Greek debt as well as using other derivatives trades to protect itself against a potential Greek default on its debt. So while Goldman Sachs engaged in long-term trades with Greek debt (meaning Greece would owe Goldman Sachs a great deal down the line), the firm simultaneously was betting against Greek debt in the short-term, profiting from the Greek debt crisis that it helped create.[Business Insider]
  
  

If I take everything you said at face value - I see this as the following:

Borrowing money to get out of Debt (always a winning combination)
Not belt tightening when needed
And a group of people going 'Heh we can profit from this' and profiting from this.....

[Woodman]

They got themselves into a financial hole Most of the "bailout" money never went to Greece

Apparently your average Greek works the longest hours out of all EU countries... and are you saying that Ze Chermans are the ESM?

Has Ocean hacked your account?

Funny I thought it was the Greeks lazy lifestyle and their sport of evading tax including not declaring earnings. Something like 85% of all declared business earnings are for debt servicing, with a lot of businesses over 100%.

[Brian d marge]

If I take everything you said at face value - I see this as the following:

Borrowing money to get out of Debt (always a winning combination)
Not belt tightening when needed
And a group of people going 'Heh we can profit from this' and profiting from this.....

you do realise when Greece joined the Eu the euro dropped making German exports cheaper......

Stephen

[Swoop]

Most of the "bailout" money never went to Greece

Of course not, it went to pay off the people who had already loaned them money.
I realize economics isn't your strong point, but please try to comprehend what is happening.

Greece announced in October 2009 that it had been understating its deficit figures for years, raising alarms about the soundness of Greek finances.
Suddenly, Greece was shut out from borrowing in the financial markets. By the spring of 2010, it was veering toward bankruptcy, which threatened to set off a new financial crisis.

The money was supposed to buy Greece time to stabilize its finances...

The bailout money mainly goes toward paying off Greece’s international loans, rather than making its way into the economy.

Quite easy to grasp really. You can attempt to deceive everyone that your rehab is working though...


Brian goes to Bob and borrows $50-, then spends it.
He then goes to Luigi and borrows $50- to pay back Bob. He doesn't do anything to earn more $$'s to be able to pay back Luigi. So Luigi stabs Brian in the cunt.
Simple.

Also, Mashy needs to read the last sentence in bold.

Not belt tightening when needed...

Precisely what Germany is requiring. Understandably.

Thank goodness someone gets it.

[Brian d marge]

Of course not, it went to pay off the people who had already loaned them money.
I realize economics isn't your strong point, but please try to comprehend what is happening.



Quite easy to grasp really. You can attempt to deceive everyone that your rehab is working though...


Brian goes to Bob and borrows $50-, then spends it.
He then goes to Luigi and borrows $50- to pay back Bob. He doesn't do anything to earn more $$'s to be able to pay back Luigi. So Luigi stabs Brian in the cunt.
Simple.

Also, Mashy needs to read the last sentence in bold.



Precisely what Germany is requiring. Understandably.

Thank goodness someone gets it.

Your stupidity offends me

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[husaberg]

Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.
The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the
palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud how on
earth he could afford such a house?

The Spaniard replied: 'You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a
grant to construct a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge
with traffic lights at either end, I could afford to build this place.'

The following year, the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply
amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond
doorknobs, it was marvellous.

When he asked how he'd raised the money to build this incredible house, the
Greek mayor said:
'You see that bridge over there?'

The Spaniard replied: 'No, there's no bridge.'

[Brian d marge]

Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.
The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the
palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud how on
earth he could afford such a house?

The Spaniard replied: 'You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a
grant to construct a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge
with traffic lights at either end, I could afford to build this place.'

The following year, the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply
amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond
doorknobs, it was marvellous.

When he asked how he'd raised the money to build this incredible house, the
Greek mayor said:
'You see that bridge over there?'

The Spaniard replied: 'No, there's no bridge.'

I suppose you could build a house ...eerr sorry a bridge with 7 billion if there was ............ couldnt do much else though like grow an economy

[husaberg]

I suppose you could build a bridge with 7 billion ............ couldnt do much else though like grow an economy

Stephen, The point is the Greeks have not done themselves any favours here.
They chose to use BS figures to get into the EU in the first place.
They then did not complete bugger all (if any) of the economic and taxation reforms that the money lent to them in the first place was conditional on.
They borrowed even more money.
While they later did do some reforms it was likely by them to little to late.
If they had not joined the EU they would have been better off.

[Brian d marge]

Stephen the pont is the Greeks have not done themselves any favours here.
They chose to use BS figures to get into the EU in the first place.
They then did not complete bugger all (if any) of the economic and taxation reforms that the money lent to them was conditional on.
They borrowed the money.

Nope , They LEGALLY , moved a portion of the debit in order to meet the mastricht treaty conditions

They dont have a manufacturing base , Yes the taxation is an issue . It was a win win situation to enter the EU ,

Wasnt the money lent to up grade the infrastructure in order to meet Eu ( ImF suggestions~? not sure on that )

Anyway ;
When Greece had to present statistics to get into the eurozone, it delivered some pretty dodgy economic figures, which were a problem for the country. Greece's persistent deficits are at least in part due to rampant tax avoidance by middle-class professionals.
In 2009 it was discovered once again that Greece's figures had been fudged: A budget deficit of about 6% was actually about twice as large (it was eventually revised to above 15%). Under the heat of the eurozone's sovereign debt crisis, ‎no country was being roasted more than Greece. Bond yields surged, and the country had to enter a €110 billion (£78 billion, $122 billion) bailout programme in May 2010.

Jp morgan again ...... and IMF again .......follow this plan of austerity and you will be back in the black in no time

Bullshyt

Just predatory lending and asset stripping pure and simple . ( New Zealand are you listening ?)


Stephen

Ps , both lender and borrow enter the contract the onus of responsibility is 50/50

[husaberg]

Nope , They LEGALLY , moved a portion of the debit in order to meet the mastricht treaty conditions

They dont have a manufacturing base , Yes the taxation is an issue . It was a win win situation to enter the EU ,

Wasnt the money lent to up grade the infrastructure in order to meet Eu ( ImF suggestions~? not sure on that )

Anyway ;
When Greece had to present statistics to get into the eurozone, it delivered some pretty dodgy economic figures, which were a problem for the country. Greece's persistent deficits are at least in part due to rampant tax avoidance by middle-class professionals.
In 2009 it was discovered once again that Greece's figures had been fudged: A budget deficit of about 6% was actually about twice as large (it was eventually revised to above 15%). Under the heat of the eurozone's sovereign debt crisis, ‎no country was being roasted more than Greece. Bond yields surged, and the country had to enter a €110 billion (£78 billion, $122 billion) bailout programme in May 2010.

Jp morgan again ...... and IMF again .......follow this plan of austerity and you will be back in the black in no time

Bullshyt

Just predatory lending and asset stripping pure and simple . ( New Zealand are you listening ?)


Stephen

Ps , both lender and borrow enter the contract the onus of responsibility is 50/50

Stephen even if all of this was true they signed the deal they juggled the figures they never made the reforms they never met the payments can you see the pattern here.

Greece needs to opt out of the EU, recreate its own heavily devalued currency and create the growth out of the benefits being a nation with history, a great climate and lifestyle location that will have cheap housing and a lower cost of living than the rest of Europe will offer.

[Brian d marge]

Stephen even if all of this was true they signed the deal they juggled the figures they never made the reforms they never met the payments can you see the pattern here.

Greece needs to opt out of the EU, recreate its own heavily devalued currency and create the growth out of the benefits being a nation with history, a great climate and lifestyle location that will have cheap housing and a lower cost of living than the rest of Europe will offer.

Yes to the pattern the same names iver and over

And I agree greece needs to leave the eu

By the way which bank financed greece to be come independent ? Around the turn of the century

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