Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

Yamaha had a strange Brit-fetish back then too..
& about 1/2 of them., were worse than the Brit equivalents..

All fine examples of where not to go and a warning to the other Japs, - goes to show that Japanese were not as good at copying as we were led to believe! - trouble is, they were underestimated and they were much more capable than we all thought - now they are respected, so we should all underestimate the Chinese at our own peril!

Husa, a lot of those guys were arrogant pratts, I have heard that Dr Lanchester (famous for the Lanchester cars and pre-selector gearboxes, balance shafts etc.) was a very clever man, but had no tolerance at all for those of lesser intellect! - probably "one of the chaps, don't you know"
But that was back in the days when bank managers etc etc. were revered by all.
Also, it seems that Ferdinand Porsche liked to work on the shop floor with his mechanics and often lay under a vehicle "working on it" and listening to what his men were saying about him. - they say that's the truth, but who knows!

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, Honda & the others with their MZ 2-stroke rip-offs showed that 50+ years ago, in bike racing..

Yamaha's Brit-copying was more like an adaptation, whereby the original gist of the plot - was often lost in the re-make..

[husaberg]

Yeah, Honda & the others with their MZ 2-stroke rip-offs showed that 50+ years ago, in bike racing..

Yamaha's Brit-copying was more like an adaptation, whereby the original gist of the plot - was often lost in the re-make..

I look at those original Kawaski A10 copies and they were better engines.
they combined the bore and stroke of the A65 made it look like the more elegant A10 gave it a 5 speed box and twin carbs.
Fixed the silly plain bush on the oil feed side as well
Granted they were not BSA rocket goldstar pretty but they were far prettier than the A65 ugly egg.


Percy Tait I think it was got the second model XS650 to steer properly same as he did for Triumph.

[J.A.W.]

Yeah, why they needed Percy is wierd.. RD/TZ chassis of the same era were ok..

Maybe it was that the XS was so bloody XS-ive, weight-wise..

Bob Trigg, who styled the Commando, later worked for Yamaha.. park an RD LC next to a roadster Commando, & you'll see it..

& I always thought the XJ Seca Yamahas - had a fair bit of Vetter Hurricane blended in too..

[WilDun]

Yeah, Honda & the others with their MZ 2-stroke rip-offs showed that 50+ years ago, in bike racing..

Yamaha's Brit-copying was more like an adaptation, whereby the original gist of the plot - was often lost in the re-make..

MZ did well considering the restrictions they had to face during their best years, and some people say that Degner was an "asshole' for defecting to Japan with all their secrets.
How did he come to have access to all their drawings etc. in the first place? - was he a rider AND engineer? - Was he a crook?
I mentioned that before somewhere and got shot down. Was Degner the only one who benefitted from the expertise of Walter Kaaden and MZ? or were they all in on it? - or was it a covert thing, - definitely not convinced!

[husaberg]

Yeah, why they needed Percy is wierd.. RD/TZ chassis of the same era were ok..

Maybe it was that the XS was so bloody XS-ive, weight-wise..

Bob Trigg, who styled the Commando, later worked for Yamaha.. park an RD LC next to a roadster Commando, & you'll see it..

& I always thought the XJ Seca Yamahas - had a fair bit of Vetter Hurricane blended in too..

I was thinking that about the LC when I posted your pics.
What used to bugger up the Japanese with the handling is that its subjective.
It wouldn't fit into the figures only design approach.
the major problem was they never understood the weight distribution.
Honda got away with it on the smaller bikes but once they got up in the HP for Hailwoods 500 I was a piece of shit.
Suzuki also could never get it right with the 250 Square four one of the riders used to ballast it with lead at the IOM
Same with the Yamaha 250 V4 they actually had a hinged steering head to try different angles
Problem was they never understood making one change effects the other geometry.
Even in the late 80's Honda got the Center of gravity wrong with the upside down NSR500.
It wasn't until they took at heap of photos secretly from Gardners camper that they realised they should have been raising it rather than lowering it.
That story was direct from Gardner his camper had tinted windows Kevins bike was stripped and parked next to it the Honda people spent hours taking 100's of photos that they later blew up to full size.
Suzuki never even knew till years later.
There is a great story of Kenny Roberts making the Japanese engineers remove the compression damping parts in a shock and going a couple of seconds quicker.
Or Doohan and burgess trailing an Ohlin's fork and shock and instantly going a full second or two quicker. without any adjustments

[J.A.W.]

Indeed, some tried harder than others, but the Nippon value of "face" ( mana) means good ideas can be stymied..

FWIW, a check of H1/Mach III Kawasaki steering specs shows factory alterations in rake, trail, offset & etc dimensions..
.. for each new model iteration - for years.. so yeah, they were tryin'..

[Frits Overmars]

The Mach III that came out in `69 with the Honda 750, had no electric start, or disc brake

Who needs an electric starter on a 500 cc two-stroke triple? You could start the Mach III with one hand on the kickstarter. Using a drum brake on that bike was not such a good idea however, and the handling was, well, exciting.
I owned two Kawasaki 750 H2s and while the frame was much stiffer, I felt I had to fit a second front brake disc (after some minor fiddling, like fitting 38 mm Mikunis and home-brewn expansion pipes ).

Now, however it is dawning on people that curved tubes are actually very strong and huge "backbone" tubes also have resonance problems. A good example of the large diameter backbone frames was the 250 and 350 Aermacchi.

Strong is not the issue. Frames need to be stiff and if you try to accomplish that with curved tubes, you need a lot more material than when using straight tubes.
And I wouldn't describe the Aermacchi backbone as large.

MZ did well considering the restrictions they had to face during their best years, and some people say that Degner was an "asshole' for defecting to Japan with all their secrets.

Thousands and thousands of Eastgermans fled from their 'democratic' country, leaving all their valuables behind; would you call them all assholes?
Ernst Degner did what they all did, only he happened to have some valuables in his head. Who could blame him for that?

[J.A.W.]

Who needs an electric starter on a 500 cc two-stroke triple? You could start the Mach III with one hand on the kickstarter. Using a drum brake on that bike was not such a good idea however, and the handling was, well, exciting.
I owned two Kawasaki 750 H2s and while the frame was much stiffer, I felt I had to fit a second front brake disc (after some minor fiddling, like fitting 38 mm Mikunis and home-brewn expansion pipes )

Hell yeah, that was my point F..

I was lucky enough to pick up a set of good ol' Denco pipes ( that needed a bit of pumping out) to go with the big Mikunis
for my H2 - way back in the day.. & it had the optional 2nd disc on it when I bought it, good score..

Willing mills, they'd run flat out & you - or the fuel - would flag 1st.. esp' in freezin'weather - no heat soak worries..

[husaberg]

Who needs an electric starter on a 500 cc two-stroke triple? You could start the Mach III with one hand on the kickstarter. Using a drum brake on that bike was not such a good idea however, and the handling was, well, exciting.
I owned two Kawasaki 750 H2s and while the frame was much stiffer, I felt I had to fit a second front brake disc (after some minor fiddling, like fitting 38 mm Mikunis and home-brewn expansion pipes ).

Strong is not the issue. Frames need to be stiff and if you try to accomplish that with curved tubes, you need a lot more material than when using straight tubes.
And I wouldn't describe the Aermacchi backbone as large.

Thousands and thousands of Eastgermans fled from their 'democratic' country, leaving all their valuables behind; would you call them all assholes?
Ernst Degner did what they all did, only he happened to have some valuables in his head. Who could blame him for that?

I actually wonder if the weight distribution on the Mach 3 was on purpose so it could be the bike so fast it would wheelie everywhere.
I can't remember the1/4 mile time but there was nothing anywhere near it at all.
It was (looking back a sensation) when it came out much like the CBR900RR Fireblade or the DT1 Yamaha where it changed the whole way the other bikes were compared.

[J.A.W.]

I actually wonder if the weight distribution on the Mach 3 was on purpose so it could be the bike so fast it would wheelie everywhere.
I can't remember the1/4 mile time but there was nothing anywhere near it at all.
It was (looking back a sensation) when it came out much like the CBR900RR Fireblade or the DT1 Yamaha where it changed the whole way the other bikes were compared.

Yeah, it (along with TRs) made the Manx Norton/G 50 Matchless into 'classic racers' overnight..

The Factory issued guidance for a fast start was..
..stand on tip toes - leaning hard over bars, dial max rpm, drop clutch & siddown when tyre was spinnin' hard..

I watched Ginger Molloy roll up to the tree at the Meremere strip on his roadrace H2R to the jeers of the V8/Brit bike guys..
He silenced them.. 1stly with the LOUD pipes, & 2ndly with a mid 10 @ ~135mph run.. this was way back in the `70s..

[WilDun]

Strong is not the issue. Frames need to be stiff and if you try to accomplish that with curved tubes, you need a lot more material than when using straight tubes.
And I wouldn't describe the Aermacchi backbone as large.

Very true Frits, but they did look more elegant on a road bike, and easier than trying to accomodate a huge engine underneath a large diameter spine.
There was a Swiss guy (Egli) who built the ultimate large diameter spine frame for the Vincent, (and other engines as well), which I was greatly interested in, Then I discovered that single tubes had a resonant frequency (which most tubes have I guess) and which could in certain circumstances take over - of course I must add that I never did actually experience that,

Thousands and thousands of Eastgermans fled from their 'democratic' country, leaving all their valuables behind; would you call them all assholes?
Ernst Degner did what they all did, only he happened to have some valuables in his head. Who could blame him for that?

No Frits I would not call them that at all, please understand that I did not call Ernst Degner that either! - What I said was that some people did actually call him just that!
I was just wondering how he managed to get hold of all that information, so could he have been involved with it's technical development also and could he possibly have escaped with Kaaden's blessing?
Many have depicted him as a villain which most probably is not true! - and no I do not blame him for leaving - it was also a terrible way for Kaaden to have to manage his world shaking technology (which was going nowhere) by being so restricted in everything he tried to do!

[Frits Overmars]

There was a Swiss guy (Egli) who built the ultimate large diameter spine frame for the Vincent, (and other engines as well), which I was greatly interested in.
Then I discovered that single tubes had a resonant frequency (which most tubes have I guess) and which could in certain circumstances take over.

Any piece of any solid material has a resonant frequency; don't worry too much about it.
Fritz Egli constructed most of his frames over big four-cylinder four-stroke engines but he also produced beauties like a frame for the 250cc Rotax tandem-twin engine.

No Frits I would not call them that at all, please understand that I did not call Ernst Degner that either! - What I said was that some people did actually call him just that!

No worries mate. I understood it as you meant it.

I was just wondering how he managed to get hold of all that information, so could he have been involved with it's technical development also and could he possibly have escaped with Kaaden's blessing?

Ernst Degner was not only the rider; he also worked in close cooperation with Kaaden, developing the engines. But I cannot imagine that Kaaden wilfully let Degner go.

[Grumph]

I actually wonder if the weight distribution on the Mach 3 was on purpose so it could be the bike so fast it would wheelie everywhere.
I can't remember the1/4 mile time but there was nothing anywhere near it at all.
It was (looking back a sensation) when it came out much like the CBR900RR Fireblade or the DT1 Yamaha where it changed the whole way the other bikes were compared.

When i raced my mach 3, I fitted clubmans bars so as to get my (considerable) weight forward. Worked a treat, it steered much better.
I ran it at a Ruapuna drag race meeting back in the day. 2nd fastest time of the day to Rod Sylvester's Chev coupe, 11.8 if I remember correctly.

Spine frames, i use larger diameter than OE tube in my Aermacchi replicas. Lighter gauge too - OE Aermacchi is 6.5mm wall thickness.....and it's soft low quality tube.

[WilDun]

I did have a short ride (not a race) on an early Mach1 and it was quite a thrilling experience I must say,!
Thankfully I owned a Suzuki T20 at the time and was used to the narrow power band even if it wasn't nearly as powerful. It had bendy forks and handled like a wet sausage but I loved it and (almost) got it tamed when it spat me off at Onekawa (Napier).
It was only mildly modified (by me) and did around 110mph, but as soon as it hit 7000 the front wheel suddenly pawed the air, much like the Mach 1.
However my racing career didn't amount to much, I wasn't much of a mechanic in those days.

Frits Thanks for your kind words, I really would not want to upset anyone, but in the 'typed word' it's sometimes hard to convey the meaning properly.
I remember seeing Horst Fugner, Ernst Degner and Werner Krumpholz racing the MZ. and I think Mike Hailwood tried them, also a Kiwi guy, John Hemplemann had a ride on one.
Silvio Grasetti took the cake, I'm pretty sure it was on an MZ, when he started waving to the crowd on the last lap (somewhere) and got passed just before the line, losing first place! - I didn't Google that, but it might be on there somewhere.

I was always in awe of Egli and his frames and I going to build one for a special, then I decided to do one featherbed style instead (and I did).

Grumph, - I was also very keen on the Aermacchi but there never was a lot of them in New Zealand for some reason -