ESE's works engine tuner

[Peter1962]

Keeping the oil isolated in the crankcase, and no need to premix with the fuel is a big help.

I'd really love to see a Ryger design that wasn't constrained by CIK competition regulations.

They already have some expertise in the team for direct fuel injection and power valve.

I think that Frits told earlier that a Ryger engine has no need for a power valve, which would explain Harry's choice of doing the development work on a KZ engine rather than on a MX engine.

[tjbw]

I think that Frits told earlier that a Ryger engine has no need for a power valve, which would explain Harry's choice of doing the development work on a KZ engine rather than on a MX engine.

Yes, they have something "cleverer" than power valve, but I'm not clever enough to figure it out.

It would be great to see power curve for Ryger KZ engine v the unmodified engine and also v Aprilia RSA.

[Peter1962]

Yes, they have something "cleverer" than power valve, but I'm not clever enough to figure it out.

It would be great to see power curve for Ryger KZ engine v the unmodified engine and also v Aprilia RSA.

What would be even greater is seeing Jan Thiel's masterpiece, the 2007 aprilia RSA being Rygerised, and being allowed to race in a Moto 3 grand prix.

[Frits Overmars]

Ryger. Big picture thoughts.
2. That the combustion efficiency is so much better, such that even though a percentage of the fuel is lost out the exhaust, the greater thermal efficiency of combustion offsets this. This therefore leading to an improved BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption, which may be in the order of 280 gm/kW hr. Would just love to know this, even from the RSA would be good.

From memory (it's almost 10 years ago) the RSA used 20 liters of 20:1 premix per hour to produce 54 hp at the secondary gearbox shaft.

What would be even greater is seeing Jan Thiel's masterpiece, the 2007 aprilia RSA being Rygerised, and being allowed to race in a Moto 3 grand prix.

I would settle for a standard RSA125 with today's tires in Moto3. Remember, the RSA had 54 hp and 70 kg. A moto3 bike has <50 hp and >80 kg.
But then of course it would't be fair. Moto3 has only 250 cc while the RSA had a full 125 cc .

[tjbw]

What would be even greater is seeing Jan Thiel's masterpiece, the 2007 aprilia RSA being Rygerised, and being allowed to race in a Moto 3 grand prix.

Maybe it would be sacreligious to touch the masterpiece. But two stroke bikes that meet emission criteria should be allowed to race.

[MotleyCrue]

Curious as to why a 20:1 mix would be used. Is it just a longevity issue or has it something to do with mosquito control ?

60-70:1 are numbers I am more used to albeit the engines don't run wide open for more than a handful of seconds at a time. 70:1 is very clean from a sight and smell perspective, much more so than 50:1.


My personal yard equipment like weedwackers, they all get 70:1 too just so they dont stink.

[d2t]

What would be even greater is seeing Jan Thiel's masterpiece, the 2007 aprilia RSA being Rygerised, and being allowed to race in a Moto 3 grand prix.

I would think that it would't go as well as the current Ryger configuration. The RSA made use of a well placed rotary valve and highly developed cylinder characteristics. Changing the configuration would probably make it run worse! But yeah, I know what you mean. Imagine a Ryger series replacing Moto3 as a support class? Maybe if KTM adopts it, a Ryger rookies cup. ...yeah

[tjbw]

I would think that it would't go as well as the current Ryger configuration. The RSA made use of a well placed rotary valve and highly developed cylinder characteristics. Changing the configuration would probably make it run worse! But yeah, I know what you mean. Imagine a Ryger series replacing Moto3 as a support class? Maybe if KTM adopts it, a Ryger rookies cup. ...yeah

Imagine the Ryger rookies lapping faster than the main event!

[wobbly]

Why 20:1 - it makes more power, been there done that when dyno testing bean oils against synthetics in KT100 racing
where 1/10 ths of a Hp makes a difference.
Modern oils dont make gobs of dirty carbon or smoke like R30 used at 16:1 - but it smalls way better.

[MotleyCrue]

Why 20:1 - it makes more power, been there done that when dyno testing bean oils against synthetics in KT100 racing
where 1/10 ths of a Hp makes a difference.
Modern oils dont make gobs of dirty carbon or smoke like R30 used at 16:1 - but it smalls way better.

About how much more power are we talking in % between say 20:1 and 50:1 ? Is it because of less friction or better sealing or something else?


20:1 may not be too smoky at full throttle after a bit, but startup and idling ............. no wonder the emissions people hate it. 70:1 and a good oil, you only know its a 2 stroke by sound.

[Lightbulb]

I use heaps of oil in my yard machines, like chainsaws, etc Mainly because they are not used on a regular basis, and I idle them for a cool down time. My rationale for this is to have a lot of oil around the insides to stop the metal parts from rusting until the next time I use them. Although the new oil for the Stihl is only 1/2 the ratio of the regular oil, I still use it at the higher rate. Oil is cheap and I figure the more I use the longer it will last. As you can tell , the short term smoke is not an issue to me. If it was I would be buying electric or 4 stroke stuff.
Neil

[MotleyCrue]

I use heaps of oil in my yard machines, like chainsaws, etc Mainly because they are not used on a regular basis, and I idle them for a cool down time. My rationale for this is to have a lot of oil around the insides to stop the metal parts from rusting until the next time I use them. Although the new oil for the Stihl is only 1/2 the ratio of the regular oil, I still use it at the higher rate. Oil is cheap and I figure the more I use the longer it will last. As you can tell , the short term smoke is not an issue to me. If it was I would be buying electric or 4 stroke stuff.
Neil

Cheap oil is cheap and that's probably a good enough reason to run a lot of oil, but I dont use cheap oil. Never had any abnormal wear or other issues. Bean oil smells good but I dont care for the smell of any other oils and bean oil only works down to certain temps.

Maybe the oily engines will outlast their smoke loving operator, just food for thought..........in 2015

[TZ350]

Curious as to why a 20:1 mix would be used.

Apart from the truth that more oil makes more power, my other reason for running 20:1 is a practical one. When you have several helpers on the team, asking someone to mix you 3l of 45:1 is fraught with mistakes. Much easier to do what Team ESE does. Buy oil in 1L packs and fuel in 20L cans. Everyone seems to understand how to fill a 20L fuel can and immediately tip in a 1L oil pack, hardly anyone could reliably grasp the technique for making up a 20:1 fuel mix on its own.

About how much more power are we talking in % between say 20:1 and 50:1 ? Is it because of less friction or better sealing or something else?

Not sure % wise, and the potential difference is probably not universally the same, but in my experience the difference is noticeable and welcome. I guess its a number of things, less friction, less heat, better sealing throughout the engine, rings seals piston skirt.

[wobbly]

Here is an extract of mine of a dyno report I was paid to do by a customer.

"
In the test I did we narrowed it down to testing two oils for the application - a KT100 direct drive Yamaha kart engine.
This engine is run all day on the edge of destruction with egt sitting at 1280*F to get the heat in the pipe.
Without this temp it wont pull to 16000,and will be "slow".
With a new piston, we ran in, then tested on fully synthetic Elf 976 that the GP teams use.
We tested at 30 and 16:1.The lower ratio made no more power but after a severe thrashing on the dyno we pulled the cylinder and the piston had score marks all over the thrust faces.
Then we put in a new piston,with a very light hone to replicate the first test but on Elf 909.
This is castor based and we found that at 16:1 the new oil made consistently 0.3 Hp over the 30:1 and that this was 0.2 Hp up on the previous oil.
So - 0.5 Hp in an engine that makes just under 17Hp and the piston looked brand new after the test. "

Bottom line is that the oil to use is application specific, in that full synthetics are fine on unleaded or low egt temp, but crap in high temp and or racegas uses.
The castor ( or ester syn ) based oils are better in both applications but alot better when used at very high temps and rich mix ratios..

[F5 Dave]

I ran 50:1 in my trials bike. But only because you spend a lot of time going bupbupbupbup and much less time going bwaahbwaah. Well the pros might. But trials bikes are a different breed.