Using LAMS approved bikes for full license test?

[pritch]

It'll be fine as long as it doesn't have a turbo or any "fast" letters tagged on after the name.

Two turbos? Nice for overtaking, but not as nice as the bike.

[FJRider]

It'll be fine as long as it doesn't have a turbo or any "fast" letters tagged on after the name.

I shudder to think what the Hyosung GT650RRR will cost to insure when it comes out ...

[Gremlin]

I shudder to think what the Hyosung GT650RRR will cost to insure when it comes out ...

I remember a mate being fine with a GSXR600, but not a ZX6R, so I'm thinking the higher the letter the worse it is. So a ZX6R is pretty bad, but a ZZR600, you're clearly going to die, as it's got 2x Z, whereas the other only has 1x Z and 1x X. Further, a GSXR is only marginally more dangerous than a GN, very close together...

OP, good idea. Let's follow Europe right? When you have your full, you still can't ride anything and don't have open access to any motorcycle. You have to complete more courses (or more time - not sure on details) before you're allowed open slather.

I'm thinking that would go down like a cup of cold sick...

[nzspokes]

I did this very thing.Waited until the lams laws were changed bought a DR650 and plan to take my time learning to ride a bike I plan to own until it falls apart(By all accounts this may be some time).I don't get caught up in the Mana bashing fact I have a L plate on my bike at the ripe old age of 39 and understand that exp comes with time(ive been on my 6L since 18) and agree whats the rush now you can get a good cc powered bike that you can grow into instead of step onto on your way past.This and the fact that riding a 250 on the road was at the best of times a very scary event.If you want a rocket ship hit the racetrack where the fines are less the corners are padded and everybody is going the same way.

You sure you still have a valid licence now the new L system allows you a max of 5 years?

[Duncan74]

As someone on a restricted at the moment, then I can just imagine the thoughts going throug my mind if I was to be walking up to take my CBTA 6R on a 'busa I'd never ridden before . I suppose the ACC people would be happy. My logic for that slightly counter intuative statment is that I would expect 80% of people would find some way to bin it in the first 100 yards, and so whilst there may be some casualties, then the rest would never be brave enough to go near a bike again. Happy ACC.....

However, forgetting the initial proposal as expressed on page 1, there is a logic to that 'progressive' approach that I do agree with. Problem is how to define it to restrict those that would benefit from some nanny state intervention, but not impeed those that don't. Time based rules are blunt instraments. Since buying my LAMS bike 8 days ago then I've ridden 2000km, including the coromandel, done a bronze ride forever course and will be touring the north island just after new year. Someone else could have easily not managed 2000km of open road riding in the year they've had their 6R.

I'm old enough to know that getting some hyper bike would increase the chances of me getting value for money from my life assurance policies. True, if I splashed the cash on a multistrada or equivalent with all the toys, then the gadgets may save me in some cases, more than someone on a 1995 250 with no ABS and skinny tyres. But even with all that wizardry, inexperience would still have me in the wrong position on a bend, travelling at pace into the melted tar, and chances are that all things eing equal, then accross the population of learner bikers more power will equal higher speed which equals more accidents and worse outcomes. Not saying that everyone would go faster, or everyone would crash / unintentionally dismount , but there will be enough to do to warrant the retention of the current system.

[swbarnett]

higher speed which equals more accidents

Bullshit
.

[TheDemonLord]

So I wanted to pick apart some of the things in this comment.

Think ... if you don't bleed in practice ... you're not practicing hard enough. Blood on the tarmac is never a pretty sight though .. and I try to avoid leaving any myself ...

Some would say so - but the principle remains.

Time spent on a firing range will NEVER prepare you for the time ... when the targets start shooting back.

Knowing how to use the weapons you have ... does help though.

You somewhat prove my point entirely - Certainly a Firing range is a world apart from someone trying to kill you - but as you say, Knowing how to use your weapon helps.

There are many on this site that had NO tiered licensing system when they started riding ... on machines that handled a dam sight worse than the ones in the last 20 years. With NO "training" from the people you stated above. They managed to stay alive ... why couldn't you .. ???

This is where I want to get into the meat of it:

Of those people - how many still have all the people with them that they started out riding with? How many have been lost through the years? Sure Machines might have handles worse 20 years ago, but was there 200 Bhp rocket ships 20 years ago? The ZZ-R1100 (which I believe was the fastest bike in 1995) has 145 HP.

However the Anecdotal evidence about old Bikers who have lost friends aside - where it really gets interesting is when we compare NZ (with our Tiered MC licence system) with say the US (where one can get a licence, then hop on a Litre bike of your choice and ride away/highside it into a pole)

For the US - the Motorcycle death rate in 2013 was 1.34 per 100,000 people. (sources availible if you want to check my maths), for NZ in 2014 the Death rate was 0.94 per 100,000 people. Now there are numerous factors I CBF trying to control for - but overall we have a very similar make up of Riders (Harleys and real Motorcyclists) and riding cultures - a difference of nearly 30% more people die in the US than NZ - and that is with NZ's 'unacceptable road toll', our 3rd world roads (at times), NZ drivers and our Tourist drivers.

30% lower between a country with a tiered system and one without.

Now sure - I'll concede there are people that learnt without a tiered system or riding courses or alike and are perfectly safe riders now, But these people tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

As for why couldn't I stay alive without the systems in place? in a short answer - having my small off taught me a great deal about the depths of my ignorance and the lack of riding skill. This hard lesson prompted me to take action to correct these faults - to the point where I am comfy pootling my 'Busa to work come wind, rain or shine on the full power setting, 5 days a week.

On any given training course ... at any time ... not all course participants finish with the same level of ability.

What they retain in their head for/during future incidents ... will vary too.

Absolutely Some people will go to a course and learn nothing - because they already have excellent habits and skills (see above for reference to these exceptional riders), others will learn nothing because they lack the mental capacity to learn or are blinded by arrogance/pride.

But for the rest - they will find faults in their riding and be given the tools to correct these faults. Tools which one day could be the difference between a sphinter tightening near-miss and death. Tools which can be learned on the test course

Rider ability will never scored by the number (or type) of training courses you've attended. To retain skills ... continual practice is needed. The ability to remember the content of a course you did three years ago ... is limited to a select few. Are you one of the few ..??

See above ... But in the real world ... situations WILL arise that will never be discussed on any training course.

I agree about continual practice - but that is premised on the skills being learnt in the first place - which is entirely the point I am making - you seem to be downplaying the value of training and continued training - I am saying that good training on the whole results in better riders. Better riders who when presented with a situation that wasn't discussed in a training course might have enough skills and knowledge to apply a variant or an improvisation of what they already know and have learned - which could be the difference between Life and Death.

As an anology - Buddy Rich (arguably the greatest drummer of all time) famously never practiced, he played Live every night and every performance - Some riders are like Buddy, they swing a leg over and are immediately in tune with the Machine.

The rest of us mere mortals have to practice to become better, and first we learn on a practice pad, then we apply it to the full Drum set, then we apply it live, with band in front of an Audience.

[RGVforme]

You sure you still have a valid licence now the new L system allows you a max of 5 years?

Bit of a story of blind luck there so grab your popcorn buddy lol..My licence expired in early 2013 and when I renewed it came back with my 6L still on it(A blue colour).

I also thought the 6L was done since I was a tadpole when I sat it and had heard the new 5 year limit was looming in 2014.So I asked and was given a print out from the AA which I still have per chance.It states

"The new 5 year time limit will apply to all new licences obtained after the 1 of December 2014 and to those existing learner and restricted licence holders when their licence is renewed"

Having a 2T motorbike smoke huffing habit I struggled with this info so I asked what this ment to my little blue card and was told that because I had renewed it before Dec 2014 the 5 year limit would not take effect until it expires again in 2023 when my existing learner licence is to be renewed.

An anomaly caused by my lazy butt not bothering to follow through on the process.The very reason the new 5 year thing was being put into effect.Ive seen other blue learner licences and they are different to my own as it states my 6l expires in 2023 in the panel on the back.
Ive asked around and have not yet found another bloke or lady in the same weird loophole.But hey im not complaining..
Rode when I was young gave it up for family reasons got back into it now life allows me to A born again learner Haha.

Onto it observant bunch on here I might have to stay.

[GrayWolf]

So I wanted to pick apart some of the things in this comment


This is where I want to get into the meat of it:

Of those people - how many still have all the people with them that they started out riding with? How many have been lost through the years? Sure Machines might have handles worse 20 years ago, but was there 200 Bhp rocket ships 20 years ago? The ZZ-R1100 (which I believe was the fastest bike in 1995) has 145 HP.

However the Anecdotal evidence about old Bikers who have lost friends aside - where it really gets interesting is when we compare NZ (with our Tiered MC licence system) with say the US (where one can get a licence, then hop on a Litre bike of your choice and ride away/highside it into a pole)



As for why couldn't I stay alive without the systems in place? in a short answer - having my small off taught me a great deal about the depths of my ignorance and the lack of riding skill. This hard lesson prompted me to take action to correct these faults - to the point where I am comfy pootling my 'Busa to work come wind, rain or shine on the full power setting, 5 days a week.

Absolutely Some people will go to a course and learn nothing - because they already have excellent habits and skills (see above for reference to these exceptional riders), others will learn nothing because they lack the mental capacity to learn or are blinded by arrogance/pride.

But for the rest - they will find faults in their riding and be given the tools to correct these faults. Tools which one day could be the difference between a sphinter tightening near-miss and death. Tools which can be learned on the test course

I agree about continual practice - but that is premised on the skills being learnt in the first place - which is entirely the point I am making - you seem to be downplaying the value of training and continued training - I am saying that good training on the whole results in better riders. Better riders who when presented with a situation that wasn't discussed in a training course might have enough skills and knowledge to apply a variant or an improvisation of what they already know and have learned - which could be the difference between Life and Death.

.

As one of those 'no training' riders who survived, and yes I lost a 'few' friends, mates, acquaintances along the way. Your reference to bikes of 20yrs ago is actually a bit 'misguided'.. I own a ZZR1100 and its a good handling, well mannered bike. The bikes we often refer to are 30+ yr's old now.
I recently gave to a 'deserving' and know they will look after it, an FJ1200. THAT was the watershed bike for handling {perimeter frame} in the early 1980's for Japanese high performance bikes. If you ever get a chance to ride a good condition FJ11/12 'in anger' it will shock you how 'poorly' it handles. It doesnt actually handle too badly, but thin forks, old style suspension, old style brakes, very heavy, long... it requires RIDING round corners. A modern litre sprotbike handles like a 'Tron bike' in comparison. ZZR's are the second generation 'uber tourer' still heavy, alloy 'beam frame' better suspension, better brakes {and they dont stop THAT quickly} 20 or so more BHP, higher revving. A superior bike to the FJ in a lot of ways, except for the loss of 'low down grunt'.
Those 'old bikes' we often comment on, Z1000's, XS1100's, CB900's, GS{X} 1000/11000 of the 1980's... common to Japanese building, the engines simply 'overpowered' the frames, much poorer tyre technology, poor brakes { in the wet, squeeze and pray}, frames that FLEXED, and you could feel it, forks that 'flexed' under heavy braking, often swingarms were questionable as to rigidity.... suspension components were certainly inferior to what you get today, Ask old riders about Honda's FVQ {fade very quickly} rear shocks...... These bikes literally have to be 'manhandled' to get them round corners with any semblance of speed.
Your 200bhp 'rocketships' that you comment were not around then, have the benefit of at LEAST double the frame/fork/tyre/suspension technology to match the increased power, AT LEAST double....... and you also now have traction control, slipper clutches, variable valve timing, superior tyres.......
more than balances out the extra performance 'risk', when compared to those 'old bikes'.

[RGVforme]

As one of those 'no training' riders who survived, and yes I lost a 'few' friends, mates, acquaintances along the way. Your reference to bikes of 20yrs ago is actually a bit 'misguided'.. I own a ZZR1100 and its a good handling, well mannered bike. The bikes we often refer to are 30+ yr's old now.
I recently gave to a 'deserving' and know they will look after it, an FJ1200. THAT was the watershed bike for handling {perimeter frame} in the early 1980's for Japanese high performance bikes. If you ever get a chance to ride a good condition FJ11/12 'in anger' it will shock you how 'poorly' it handles. It doesnt actually handle too badly, but thin forks, old style suspension, old style brakes, very heavy, long... it requires RIDING round corners. A modern litre sprotbike handles like a 'Tron bike' in comparison. ZZR's are the second generation 'uber tourer' still heavy, alloy 'beam frame' better suspension, better brakes {and they dont stop THAT quickly} 20 or so more BHP, higher revving. A superior bike to the FJ in a lot of ways, except for the loss of 'low down grunt'.
Those 'old bikes' we often comment on, Z1000's, XS1100's, CB900's, GS{X} 1000/11000 of the 1980's... common to Japanese building, the engines simply 'overpowered' the frames, much poorer tyre technology, poor brakes { in the wet, squeeze and pray}, frames that FLEXED, and you could feel it, forks that 'flexed' under heavy braking, often swingarms were questionable as to rigidity.... suspension components were certainly inferior to what you get today, Ask old riders about Honda's FVQ {fade very quickly} rear shocks...... These bikes literally have to be 'manhandled' to get them round corners with any semblance of speed.
Your 200bhp 'rocketships' that you comment were not around then, have the benefit of at LEAST double the frame/fork/tyre/suspension technology to match the increased power, AT LEAST double....... and you also now have traction control, slipper clutches, variable valve timing, superior tyres.......
more than balances out the extra performance 'risk', when compared to those 'old bikes'.

I kind of agree but look at the old rider new bike tech thing like this.Drive an old ford escort in the 80s still a pretty good car back then but still bugger all suspension heaps of body roll small brakes retread tyres into a corner too fast.Remember that 'Oh shit' feeling you learnt to get when the car told you it was at its limit?.Now drive a modern escort better suspension ABS less bodyroll better rubber into the same corner now.It takes a lot more speed before that 'Oh shit' feeling kicks in I think giving the driver less time and more speed to scrub off to recover.Same car make same person driving different better tech.

If a born again bike rider with slower reactions is riding on learnt instinct and skill based on old tech bikes and is waiting for that 'Oh shit' feeling before tipping it in it may come far too late if at all to do anything about it.The warning signs he or she is used to using from their skillset have gone.Add to the the stupid large gray hairy balled mindset of "Ive been riding for 40 years" and "Its just a 600 like the ole impulse" the ingredients for an off are starting to add up.

Even with little advancement in motorcycle tech in the last 20 years or less if the mindset of the rider is not matched to the age and style bike they are riding and the environment they are riding in it does not matter how old the bike is perhaps.

[Duncan74]

Bullshit
.

Thanks ;-)

However, your last quote in your signature seems to suggest you agree with what I was trying to state. If you look at the full bit of my post that you quoted, then I suggested that some people would have an increased risk. As we're focussing on less experienced riders here (not ful license / just passed full) then I would respectfully suggesst that it would be fair to suggesst those riders (myself included) have a lower level of competence at this stage in our riding careers. And so, given the unforgiving nature of incompetence then something that reduces the risk of that incompetence has to be helpful. In this context then it's about giving more time to react to events. This includes the tyre hitting a bit of slippery tar, a gust of side wind mid corner, a pot hole on the road and the decision as to where to steer, etc.

Note that I'm not taking about any changes to posted speed limits applying, that's a different kettle of fish. I'm talking about power / acceleration.

[swbarnett]

Thanks ;-)

However, your last quote in your signature seems to suggest you agree with what I was trying to state. If you look at the full bit of my post that you quoted, then I suggested that some people would have an increased risk. As we're focussing on less experienced riders here (not ful license / just passed full) then I would respectfully suggesst that it would be fair to suggesst those riders (myself included) have a lower level of competence at this stage in our riding careers. And so, given the unforgiving nature of incompetence then something that reduces the risk of that incompetence has to be helpful. In this context then it's about giving more time to react to events. This includes the tyre hitting a bit of slippery tar, a gust of side wind mid corner, a pot hole on the road and the decision as to where to steer, etc.

Note that I'm not taking about any changes to posted speed limits applying, that's a different kettle of fish. I'm talking about power / acceleration.

Fair enough. I did take that bit a bit out of context.

[TheDemonLord]

As one of those 'no training' riders who survived, and yes I lost a 'few' friends, mates, acquaintances along the way. Your reference to bikes of 20yrs ago is actually a bit 'misguided'.. I own a ZZR1100 and its a good handling, well mannered bike. The bikes we often refer to are 30+ yr's old now.
I recently gave to a 'deserving' and know they will look after it, an FJ1200. THAT was the watershed bike for handling {perimeter frame} in the early 1980's for Japanese high performance bikes. If you ever get a chance to ride a good condition FJ11/12 'in anger' it will shock you how 'poorly' it handles. It doesnt actually handle too badly, but thin forks, old style suspension, old style brakes, very heavy, long... it requires RIDING round corners. A modern litre sprotbike handles like a 'Tron bike' in comparison. ZZR's are the second generation 'uber tourer' still heavy, alloy 'beam frame' better suspension, better brakes {and they dont stop THAT quickly} 20 or so more BHP, higher revving. A superior bike to the FJ in a lot of ways, except for the loss of 'low down grunt'.
Those 'old bikes' we often comment on, Z1000's, XS1100's, CB900's, GS{X} 1000/11000 of the 1980's... common to Japanese building, the engines simply 'overpowered' the frames, much poorer tyre technology, poor brakes { in the wet, squeeze and pray}, frames that FLEXED, and you could feel it, forks that 'flexed' under heavy braking, often swingarms were questionable as to rigidity.... suspension components were certainly inferior to what you get today, Ask old riders about Honda's FVQ {fade very quickly} rear shocks...... These bikes literally have to be 'manhandled' to get them round corners with any semblance of speed.
Your 200bhp 'rocketships' that you comment were not around then, have the benefit of at LEAST double the frame/fork/tyre/suspension technology to match the increased power, AT LEAST double....... and you also now have traction control, slipper clutches, variable valve timing, superior tyres.......
more than balances out the extra performance 'risk', when compared to those 'old bikes'.

Fair points - I haven't ridden anything older than a 95 - however in my defence - I wasn't the one who brought up 20 year old bikes, so I was rather taking that on face value.

A question to you however (feel free to not answer) - Do you think that some of those that you lost would still be here had they gone through a tiered system or if the plethora of advanced riding/training courses availible now were around when they were riding?

[FJRider]

Fair points - I haven't ridden anything older than a 95 - however in my defence - I wasn't the one who brought up 20 year old bikes, so I was rather taking that on face value.

There are many on KB that will rregard 20 year old bikes as "Modern" ... ride a 50's .. 60's or 70's model. Any model bike of THAT era. 20 year old bikes can (sort of) handle ...

A question to you however (feel free to not answer) - Do you think that some of those that you lost would still be here had they gone through a tiered system or if the plethora of advanced riding/training courses availible now were around when they were riding?

Of at least eight friends I had that died riding a motorcycle ... six were the result of a car drivers error (failing to give way/stop) .. A head on with an overtaking car .. swerved to avoid an approaching car on a blind corner. One was caused by a passenger in a car tossing a newspaper out the window ... and it wrapped itself around his helmet.
Youthful exuberance caused at least one.

Two were riders pissed in charge ... not unheard of nowdays either ...

I'm unaware of any training course that would have saved them. (Bar on on CPR)

[Ender EnZed]

Of at least eight friends I had that died riding a motorcycle ... six were the result of a car drivers error (failing to give way/stop) ...

I'm unaware of any training course that would have saved them.

I'm no expert on this matter, but I'm fairly confident that a primary focus of almost/literally every motorcycle training course is dealing with car drivers that fail to give way.