Hi-Viz - I do not think that word means what you think it means (Princess Bride ref)

[Moi]

Thank you for those links...

Agree, Hurt's research is old, probably some of the seminal research undertaken and agree that those who have ridden - here I'd include those who rode push bikes as well as motor bikes - tend to be more aware of two-wheel riders on the road.

Have looked for that report you read, but no luck. However, did find this one: http://www.otago.ac.nz/wellington/otago033316.pdf

[AllanB]

Be interested to see how the police react to 'weaving' .... I comment as some years back I was doing the bored wiggle behind a long row of cars and got the razz lights and pull over. Comment was passed along the lines of 'loss of vehicle control bla bla' I did point pout that any instance of loss of vehicle control on a motorcycle generally results in the motorcycle lying on it's side......

Left with a 'warning'.

On a counter note I was pulled over last weekend (speed only) and told to slow down and get home safely, given the speed he indicated he had buzzed me at I should have been walking. Nice chap. He liked my bike too.


Back to safety.


You have been able to purchase a rear brake modulator in the USA for years - basically the longer you are braking the faster the rear brake light flashes. Designed to grab the immediate attention of knobs following you who are not paying attention. A bloody good idea too as current motorcycle fashion is minimalism of brake lights sizing (piddly one on my Ducati but bright as LED).

I was going to order one some years back and checked first with the LT crowd who told me any flashing light other than turn signals would be illegal, fail a WOF and be open for a fine.

Same with those flashy LED plug leads that were fashionable on HD's in the USA customs scene.

Another though pops to my mind - way back in the 80's my brother had a cool wee Z200 Kawasaki and he had set up a small white driving light at the front of the lower engine pointing to the ground. It lit up the road below the bike at night and he was very visible.

[eldog]

Be interested to see how the police react to 'weaving' .... I comment as some years back I was doing the bored wiggle behind a long row of cars and got the razz lights and pull over. Comment was passed along the lines of 'loss of vehicle control bla bla' I did point pout that any instance of loss of vehicle control on a motorcycle generally results in the motorcycle lying on it's side......

You have been able to purchase a rear brake modulator in the USA for years - basically the longer you are braking the faster the rear brake light flashes.

Another though pops to my mind - way back in the 80's my brother had a cool wee Z200 Kawasaki and he had set up a small white driving light at the front of the lower engine pointing to the ground. It lit up the road below the bike at night and he was very visible.

I do a lot of weaving on the road, first - when I am starting off on my ride to warm up the tyres, when I feel bored - I use it to increase concentration, when I feel that after too many straights the tyres are cooling down on the sides, when some one may cross in front of me I use it to make myself more visible.
I did the Bronze ACC course, they suggested that we weave when we are coming upto an intersection to make our selves more visible.
Not talking massive weaves just 1/4-1/2 of the lane - easy long weave.
Weaving has 'saved me' a few times - sudden driver realisation of my presence.

I have fitted a brake light modulator on a bike www.bikevis.com they really make a difference.
they flash when you put the brakes on and become solid after a second or 2. If you repeatedly put the brake on in a short time, (like at a stop) they don't flash they just act as a brake light.

I also fitted positioning lights (bullets) that had a modulator it never went to off just slowly when from 70% to full -from memory, but they need to be positioned away from the main headlight, I found a triangle pattern best.

I have also seen some of those coloured LED strips on bikes at night they really make a difference.

I don't have a problem with adding stuff that some people might deem illegal, as long as it doesn't affect other road users. It's my life I am playing with.

[haydes55]

Hi vis is like religion. People believe it helps without evidence that it's true. Yet millions swear by it.

The only defense of religion is you can't prove it isn't true. Well, we can't prove hi vis doesn't work either.

Funily enough, I don't think is there any proof that speed limits save lives or reduce crashes at all. But that's another shit storm entirely.

[Tazz]

Be interested to see how the police react to 'weaving' .... I comment as some years back I was doing the bored wiggle behind a long row of cars and got the razz lights and pull over. Comment was passed along the lines of 'loss of vehicle control bla bla' I did point pout that any instance of loss of vehicle control on a motorcycle generally results in the motorcycle lying on it's side......

Left with a 'warning'.

On a counter note I was pulled over last weekend (speed only) and told to slow down and get home safely, given the speed he indicated he had buzzed me at I should have been walking. Nice chap. He liked my bike too.


Back to safety.


You have been able to purchase a rear brake modulator in the USA for years - basically the longer you are braking the faster the rear brake light flashes. Designed to grab the immediate attention of knobs following you who are not paying attention. A bloody good idea too as current motorcycle fashion is minimalism of brake lights sizing (piddly one on my Ducati but bright as LED).

I was going to order one some years back and checked first with the LT crowd who told me any flashing light other than turn signals would be illegal, fail a WOF and be open for a fine.

Same with those flashy LED plug leads that were fashionable on HD's in the USA customs scene.

Another though pops to my mind - way back in the 80's my brother had a cool wee Z200 Kawasaki and he had set up a small white driving light at the front of the lower engine pointing to the ground. It lit up the road below the bike at night and he was very visible.

Pulsing settings on LED driving lights are getting more popular too. Very noticeable even during the day, but alas, also illegal.

[TheDemonLord]

There is also sound evidence that crashing a car is less injurious to your health then crashing a motorcycle. I know you have said that your support for mandated "safety" is not absolute. The problem is with people who support ANY safety device being mandated to the point that they would mandate car use over motorcycles.

While I firmly support the assertion that gloves save your hands^*, I still think it is morally wrong to legislate their use. In the same way that I believe mandatory helmet use is amoral. Simply put, my body, my risk.


^*My wife had a truck run over her hand last year. Not one area of normal skin was visible (all scrapes and bruises). Within a week it was almost entirely back to normal. I shudder to think what would've happened had she not been wearing gloves.

Out of Curiosity - what is your position on the argument that mandatory helmet use dissuades those either too thick to understand the benefits of helmet use or the blase attitude 'Oh, I'm just popping it for a minute'

I agree on your principle - but interested to hear your thoughts on the counter argument

[eldog]

Hi vis is like religion. People believe it helps without evidence that it's true. Yet millions swear by it.

The only defense of religion is you can't prove it isn't true. Well, we can't prove hi vis doesn't work either.

Funily enough, I don't think is there any proof that speed limits save lives or reduce crashes at all. But that's another shit storm entirely.

Religion makes people feel good, they have a purpose, it can also relieve their conscience when they do something good or bad.

Speed limits are indicators to help most people.
I would be interested if we changed the open road speed limit to any speed and what would happen.

I would expect the number of bad crashes to increase then decrease to more or less what we have now. Just the outcomes would be more dramatic. (Crashes/accidents/deaths)
Not all crashes/accidents and deaths are caused by road conditions or others on the road.

[swbarnett]

This whole issue of "mandated safety" is not black and white but a continuum and there are 'zealots' at both ends of that continuum - those who would ban all motorbikes to those who say my choice what and how and when I ride. I stand somewhere in the middle of that continuum - I suspect that you stand almost at one end of it - which is why I expect to see sound evidence to be presented in support of any legislation, but would rather see education than legislation.

Sorry, but there's no grey area in this^*. It's about the sanctity of one's own body and mind. NO-ONE has any right whatsoever to try and save me from myself. The law prohibiting suicide is a perfect example. If I want to put a bullet through my head no government has the right to say I may not. My body and mind belong to ME and no-one else. Even my wife doesn't have the right to tell me that anything I do is too risky and expect me to desist (she respects that and gets the same from me).

On the flip side I'm all for education leading to informed choice. As long as it's still a choice.



^*In practical terms I agree that there is when it comes to legislation.

[swbarnett]

Out of Curiosity - what is your position on the argument that mandatory helmet use dissuades those either too thick to understand the benefits of helmet use or the blase attitude 'Oh, I'm just popping it for a minute'

I agree on your principle - but interested to hear your thoughts on the counter argument

Not sure I understand the question.

Mandatory helmet use has probably saved a life or two. As far as I'm concerned that is insufficient justification to make the law a moral thing to do. We've probably all done things out of ignorance that could've been fatal and probably have been for some. That doesn't mean they should be outlawed.

[rastuscat]

I've not read the whole lot of this thread but I have some thoughts on the OP.

I started looking into this when I wore the blue suit. Spent ages making submissions on DRLs for bikes, considering all sides of the argument.

Some observations. More people pulled out in front of me when I was on the work bike than when I was on my own bike. Same model, different colours. I have fitted auxiliary fog lights to my own one, and I forget to turn them off. Yup, people pull out in front of troll bikes.

WTF I thought. Until I read about looming, motion camouflage, saccading etc.

Humans are simply programmed in a way which means you won't be seen all the time, by everyone.

The biggest part of the equation was addressed by Prof Charlie Lamb in his piece on Conspicuity. It's not the colour itself that matters, but the contrast.

For me, even the contrast is only a small part. Positioning is the key. Not putting yourself in a position where's it's hard to be seen. And moving across both axis of someone's vision, where possible.

I'd love to sit and discuss this over a beer with anyone. Nothing would change, but at least we would have had a beer.

I don't always wear hi viz, I'd hate to see it legislated. Totally against compulsory cycle helmets too actually.

[Ocean1]

Agree, Hurt's research is old, probably some of the seminal research undertaken and agree that those who have ridden - here I'd include those who rode push bikes as well as motor bikes - tend to be more aware of two-wheel riders on the road.

Have looked for that report you read, but no luck. However, did find this one: http://www.otago.ac.nz/wellington/otago033316.pdf

"A study performed in Israel indicated that
rather than just wearing bright colours and high visibility gear it was more important to
wear something that provided contrast with the background in order to maximise
chances of being seen (13). It was found that reflective and white outfits increased
visibility in urban areas where the background was more complex and multi-coloured.
However, black clothing had an advantage on inter-urban roads where the background
was solely bright sky. This suggests that conspicuity can be improved by wearing
appropriate clothes that will distinguish the rider from the background environment".

So, the current high-vis white helmet and high-vis black jacket are looking pretty much like what common sense might suggest is good idea.

Excellent, can we now get back to blaming the fuckwits that fail to see shit that's perfectly bloody obvious?

[Ocean1]

Be interested to see how the police react to 'weaving' .... I comment as some years back I was doing the bored wiggle behind a long row of cars and got the razz lights and pull over. Comment was passed along the lines of 'loss of vehicle control bla bla' I did point pout that any instance of loss of vehicle control on a motorcycle generally results in the motorcycle lying on it's side......

Left with a 'warning'.

Safe to say it was a 4 wheeled policeman?

In which case I'd be questioning his qualification to comment.

You have been able to purchase a rear brake modulator in the USA for years - basically the longer you are braking the faster the rear brake light flashes. Designed to grab the immediate attention of knobs following you who are not paying attention. A bloody good idea too as current motorcycle fashion is minimalism of brake lights sizing (piddly one on my Ducati but bright as LED).

I was going to order one some years back and checked first with the LT crowd who told me any flashing light other than turn signals would be illegal, fail a WOF and be open for a fine.

I bought one ex US and fitted it to one of my Buells. The difference in behaviour of those following even fairly conservatively was dramatic, you'd pull up at lights checking in your mirrors to see the nearest car waaaayyy back.

[Moi]

Be interested to see how the police react to 'weaving' .... I comment as some years back I was doing the bored wiggle behind a long row of cars and got the razz lights and pull over. Comment was passed along the lines of 'loss of vehicle control bla bla' I did point out that any instance of loss of vehicle control on a motorcycle generally results in the motorcycle lying on it's side...

I move about in my lane when in traffic - you could say I'm weaving from left side of left wheel track to right side of right wheel track - in order to see what is happening up ahead... especially important when following anything, other than a sedan - can see over them, that has tinted windows.

[Stevee2]

This thread reminded me of this article which I found quite disturbing:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times...nging-injuries

Police suggest high-visibility clothing could have prevented the crash

It scares me that when someone pulls out in the path of a bike the police blame the biker for not wearing high-vis (victim blaming?).

[rastuscat]

Further re positioning, I've found that life is better with my wife when we try different positions.