New crash study.

[george formby]

Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.

Well said and true. Last time I was caught out due to a moments inattention and had to chuck the anchor out I chirped the front with my initial reaction.

A is for Anti Lock and it's a no brainer, really

[Akzle]

I bet if I was leading a group ride of them they would follow if I went over a cliff.

try it by yourself, first, just as a practice run eh...

I'll happily bring fireworks to that occasion

I'll supply the single malt!

i'll put on a bonfire and some kind of meaty goodness.

[Akzle]

Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.

dig it. and i would never claim that i could out-brake ABS. just that i don't ever tend to find myself in situations where slamming the brakes is the best course of action. ever.

[Akzle]

Well said and true. Last time I was caught out due to a moments inattention and had to chuck the anchor out I chirped the front with my initial reaction.

A is for Anti Lock and it's a no brainer, really

never ridden a cicle with ABS, and only tripped it in a cage twice. once was a rav4 on a boat ramp, i lolled so hard (not my rav4)

second was enthusiastically (and deliberately) decelerating a toy-mota sporty thing, levin or trueno or some shit. but my instinct to not-lock-the-cunt-up-and-sledge took over so it was only a moment, 3 or four pulses, then a fokken sikk skid.

i'd never advocate it as a safety feature. it's more an inattentive-moron-feature.

[pritch]

Recalling a conversation about filming sports events, the rider who was carrying a cameraman, was told by an official to move quickly from A to B some kilometres away.
The next time things slowed down enough for conversation the cameraman asked. "How fast were we going back there?"

The answer went something like this, "I know a lot of guys who've done the ton up on a bike, but you are the only one I know who did it facing backwards."

Gremlin and others will know the rider, but it's not my place to give his name.

[Gremlin]

Let me stress I am not rubbishing ABS technology as being an aid but just the cost of it if it packs up and you will find that out yourself if yours does, being a BMW rider as the high cost I was told was for a BMW ABS repair. Sadly if you want all the latest safety aids they cost big money. I am not sure but I think on some of the latest BMW bikes they now incorporate a tip over warning system if you corner too hard. Despite having never come off while leaned over in a corner that would be a safety feature I see as giving me a bit of piece of mind when I corner.

You tried pricing up anything? BMW final drive wears out (the worn part wasn't replaceable), $3300 for a new one. Air bags in cars? afaik, you can't replace, so the entire vehicle is written off. Engines, clutches, drivetrains, they all wear out. You'll replace the battery / starter motor at some point, they cost too. I've already replaced my drive shaft, final drive and shocks amongst other things. At new prices there is no change from $10k just for those 3 items. Yay for Ebay and wreckers.

A client had a VW Golf with DSG gearbox. Couple of times it decided it didn't have any gears during overtakes (neutral, yay) and once an error was logged, the entire gearbox ($15k) was replaced - under warranty. A cameraman I've worked with had a Touareg. ABS unit got wet, wiring loom affected as well. New ABS was $3k ish, new wiring loom... $20k+ (factory special order, custom built as wasn't being produced) Insurance write off as it was only worth $10k. Parts cost, shoes are cheaper. So perhaps walking is the best option for you?

Don't think I'd want a tip over system, depending on what it did. Many times it would be a really bad thing, unless the bike was already over on it's side, then sure, cut the ignition.

[Akzle]

Are you agreeing with me

no. no. FUCKING NO. I will NEVAR agree with ANY part of ANYTHING you post.

fuck off and die.

[Akzle]

The only reason for that is shit just has never happened fast enough for you to need to emergency brake. It happened in my accidents so quick it would not have mattered if I had had no brakes. Shit does not travel at a constant speed.

no. you fucking idiot. the main reason i've never been in that situation is because i'm not a blithering dipshit, and actually maintain some kind of focus on shit that's going on around (and particularly in front) me.

my perception of time isn't skewed by panic.
(ever. possibly due to many years of drug ab/use)

try it sometime, you might surprise yourself (more, you'll surprise everyone else too, surely that's worth something to your puny minimum-wage ego)

i should possibly mention that i frequently exceed the posted limit (even around corners, too :O ), and by more than your gay "10-15"

[Laava]

And for you to be posting considering you opinion of my views I give you a PASS for WASTING YOUR TIME!!

I was taking a dump.

[Akzle]

I will repeat again you have just got lucky so far

your totally right. not being hit by heavy shit is 100 percents luck. i should probably buy more lotto tickets.

and it would not hurt to practise some emergency braking just in case your luck runs out.

all aboard the ass-umption train!

If you dont know how to emergency brake I bet more that likely you will end up panicing yourself.

WOO-WOO!

Maybe go to a riding school and learn how to do it?

how could you possibly advocate that now, when you've been so critical of them in the past?
surely they're going to teach me to feel under pressure and ride the centre line and...errr, whatever the fuck else you wank on about from your position of ignorance having never been to one...
(or did your WOF guy tell you?)

All my emergency braking so far has been successful where shit his given me time to do it.

i make my own time. but hey. don't let me stop you.

[Zedder]

I was taking a dump.

Yep, it has that effect alright.

[Akzle]

Just get a lesson focussed on how to emergency brake if like me you have doubts about the benefit of anything else.

i have grave (oh!) doubts about the benefits of all the shit you post.

what should i do?
(oh!)

(that's rhetorical you idiot. see point number "fuck off and die", above)

[onearmedbandit]

I will repeat again you have just got lucky so far and it would not hurt to practise some emergency braking just in case your luck runs out. If you dont know how to emergency brake I bet more that likely you will end up panicing yourself. Maybe go to a riding school and learn how to do it? All my emergency braking so far has been successful where shit his given me time to do it.

Ok can you clear something up for me? You constantly go on about 'luck', as if it's the only thing protecting us out there. So therefore do you believe that being aware of constant hazards etc serves no benefit?

[swbarnett]

Excellent, but you're missing some of the key factors.

In perfect conditions, mentally prepared, yes, it's quite possible that ABS may be beaten by a good rider without ABS. Now let's factor in any combination of:
- poor weather
- bad road surface
- unskilled rider
- panic reaction

The simple fact is, even if you practise emergency braking, you're mentally prepared for it while practising, or have done it several times over. But when you're on the road and a car suddenly pulls out in front of you, name the most typical reaction? Difference is, you weren't in the mental mode of emergency braking. Like most safety aids (let's include rider training) it's not a magic bullet to stop any chance. It just helps stack the odds in your favour.

To my mind the question of out-braking ABS is still unresolved and will always be so. I have successfully out-braked both an ABS car and bike on my non-ABS GSX. However, as you say, this was in controlled practice conditions in ideal weather. On the other hand I have done emergency braking successfully several times on different bikes with the front tyre right on the edge of losing traction (some on wet roads) using a combination of friction and engine braking (through all the gears until stopped). My gut feel is that ABS would likely have equalled this performance but not outdone it. Can I prove this? No. I'm willing to admit that this is only a gut feel and may be wrong. Until we have continuous monitoring on ALL bikes (over my dead body) we will never have enough data to say for sure.

My only real concern with ABS is that, like any other "aid", coming to rely on it may result in a problem if you ever have to fall back on your own emergency braking skills. If it never fails then this is, of course, a mute point.

[Gremlin]

I'm probably one of those unusual ones. I've activated the ABS on the BMW many times. Rear is easy, even on sealed roads because of the long travel suspension etc. Front is harder, very rare on sealed roads (partially because of improved riding skills, I very rarely "test" it now) but very easy on gravel to activate one or the other, or both, at will. I also turn off as required, almost always on technical terrain, where I need to lock the wheels. It also has traction control (amongst other things), also tested on seal and gravel regularly. Also high-sided with TC enabled, when it cut my power too late when I was already at opposite lock and steering into the slide (no power = no slide = abrupt change in direction)

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. Front was mostly a case of braking after acceleration, so less weight on the front which meant it lost traction. Obviously get off the brake before you hit the deck.

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.