Go Pros create unsafe riders

[caspernz]

Isnt being in the wrong place at the wrong time the only "contributing factor" for anyone not at fault though irrespective of speed? I remember debating on here with a guy who said he was an IAMs instructor and I gave him an example of an accident that I was in that was not my fault and there was no time or where to brake or swerve and he had no answer to what I could have done to avoid the collision.

Unless those on here experience such a collision they will never understand where I am coming from I guess.
Actual collision experience rather than just a riding school pass is what some on here maybe need before they start mouthing off.

For starters IAM don't have instructors...observers is what those volunteers are called.

But to suggest there's nothing one could do in the case of an accident, to either avoid the accident altogether or at least minimize the severity, that's a self defeating attitude. When you've been involved in a number of accidents where you lay all of the blame with the other road user, well I for one have an issue with that. At the very least it suggests you've learned nothing from a previous accident, at worst it suggests what is referred to as a closed mind.

Have I ever crashed a bike? Yep in my early years I've had two minor prangs, both largely my fault. The main difference is that I chose to view those incidents as a learning opportunity. Did I become a better rider as a result of having two accidents? Nope, but it helped in the learning curve overall. The main variation is that I viewed them with an open mind, and it's led on to me taking part in all and any training available to me. That is what keeps me improving as a rider. Do I think of myself as perfect? Nope, but I'm doing all that I can to be safe, short of not riding at all.

As predictable as your responses are, the funny part is that the vast majority of traffic situations have a degree of predictability in them, thus one can be taught to adopt a default "safe" approach. But hey, in order to accept this an open mind is required...and as we all know, that's been your downfall.

[Moi]

Isn't being in the wrong place at the wrong time the only "contributing factor" for anyone not at fault though irrespective of speed? I remember debating on here with a guy who said he was an IAM instructor and I gave him an example of an accident that I was in that was not my fault and there was no time or where to brake or swerve and he had no answer to what I could have done to avoid the collision.

Unless those on here experience such a collision they will never understand where I am coming from I guess.
Actual collision experience rather than just a riding school pass is what some on here maybe need before they start mouthing off.

As I said in that post, "there are some, perhaps playing devil's advocate, who would counter argue that you should have been more observant of your surroundings and when you realised that a vehicle was about to cross the centre line you should have done whatever you could to get out of its way."

If I remember correctly, and I stand to be corrected on this, in the past some insurance companies attributed "blame for a crash" in percentages to all involved with the percentages totally 100. So, if you were rear-ended they may say your blame contribution to the crash was, say, 5% and the person who hit your rear was 95% to blame because the insurance company argued that "just being there" you had contributed to the crash. Had you left your starting point 2 minutes earlier or later you probably would not have been there.

Now, "being in the wrong place at the wrong time"... this is one of those philosophical questions that could be debated endlessly. However, I'm going to suggest that if you were on your bike and were rear-ended while waiting at a set of traffic lights then you were not sufficiently aware of what was happening behind you, you had not checked in your mirrors or, perhaps, had made a "what if" plan. What if that vehicle coming up behind does not stop? What am I going to do?

As for other situations, there are those who would argue that you had not prepared yourself for that "what if" scenario... what if a vehicle coming the other way runs wide on this corner? what if, heaven forbid, a dog runs out? what if a child runs out? what if that vehicles pulls out of that side street?

Before you start replying to what I have written, stop and think about those scenarios. What could you do to reduce the change of a crash in each of those situations?

[caspernz]

My argument is not with accidents due to our own fault but the fault of others. You are an example of a person on here who needs to experience an accident through the fault of someone else to become educated on what I am saying here. Unless you have extra sensory perception it is impossible to forecast in advance when others are going to screw up on the road. If everyone had ESP there would be no crashes now would there? Just think about it.

You see there's an element of perception in here. I say my two accidents are largely my fault, primarily because I accept that I could have taken a different course of action when faced with less than ideal circumstances. So when I'm going a little bit quick and then can't quite haul the bike up to a stop when that car pulls out from a side street...I can choose to blame the car driver entirely. I didn't, and learned from that experience. Nothing to do with ESP, purely down to poor choices made by me. The joys of being 17 in a way. Certainly put the focus on "riding to the conditions" and learning how to perform panic/emergency stops.

The second accident I had, not even a year later. Damp day, coming off a motorway exit ramp, slight bend with what was most likely a diesel spill. Front end washout at low speed. So do I blame the person who spilled the diesel or do I admit my own powers of observation at that stage of my riding career could improve? Again, nothing to do with ESP, it was all there for me to observe yet this is where I failed. Learning experience...

So by all means keep banging the drum about accidents where you had no options for alternative actions, sorry to say I'm not buying it.

[Moi]

My argument is not with accidents due to our own fault but the fault of others. You are an example of a person on here who needs to experience an accident through the fault of someone else to become educated on what I am saying here. Unless you have extra sensory perception it is impossible to forecast in advance when others are going to screw up on the road. If everyone had ESP there would be no crashes now would there? Just think about it.

Just along the road from my home is a crossroads intersection - one street has STOP signs and the other has no control. Whenever I approach that intersection and I on the uncontrolled street I am very vigilant about what is happening on that other street. Why? Because too many drivers and riders have no understanding of STOP signs and drive/ride straight through them.

If a driver fails to stop and, consequently, give way to me and I hit them because "I had the right of way" and I had done nothing to avoid that situation then I would argue that am as much at fault as the other driver. Perhaps if I was in the middle of the intersection and they drove into the side of me then it could be argued that there was nothing I could do about the crash. However, the philosophers might want to argue the "just being there" point...

So, it is nothing to do with ESP at all. It is to do with riding, or driving, in such a way as to take such action as is possible in order to avoid an incident or crash. If someone else does something "stupid" and I crash into them when there was time for me to avoid that then I have contributed to the crash - and I make that "time" by creating a safety zone around myself.

Others have said it before and others will say it again - "Ride as if everyone is out to kill you..."

[Moi]

The only way of reducing the chance of crash when others screw up is to stay off the road full stop as you never know how far away you will be from them when they do. You may get time to brake or swerve or you may not. Its a bit of a lottery eh. You would be surprised to know that ACC gets many claims from falls in the home each year so you don't even have to leave the footpath to come to grief. Life is risky full stop.

If you feel that this is the solution, then please apply this solution to your riding and driving and stay home.


Meanwhile I am going to continue riding and driving and whilst doing so I am going to do all that is within my powers to avoid having a crash. If I am unfortunate to have a crash then I'm going to be looking at what I did that contributed to the crash and learn from that...

[Madness]

If you feel that this is the solution, then please apply this solution to your riding and driving and stay home.

And on the internet all day?

[caspernz]

Apparently I must spread some rep before giving it to Moi again...

The main prerequisite for your argument is an open mind on the part of your audience, or at least a willingness to re-examine past events with one. Let's just whistle Dixie now...

[Honest Andy]

It's certainly good to have an experts view from time to time.
Whatever anyone says about Cassina he/she is very knowledgeable on crashing.

I was a bit of an expert at crashing myself, when I was young and ignorant. But with more experience and training my specialist subject now is "not crashing".
It took some time and perserverance but it's been worth it.

I think of it as a promotion.

[Moi]

You can only have powers to avoid screw ups that you could make personally. You are a fool if you think you could have the same power to avoid the screw ups of others.

Scenario:

I'm riding, or for that matter driving, in the left lane of two lanes. There's another vehicle in the right lane lane. That vehicle suddenly and unexpectedly pulls over to the left and enters my lane. Other vehicle almost hits me, perhaps they do hit me...

I suspect you'd say it was a screw up on the part of the other driver that caused me to be hit.

I'd argue that I could have avoided that situation...

Now here's the challenge - are you prepared to accept it?

What could I have done prior to the "incident" to have avoided it?

I await your response.

[Honest Andy]

oh oh I know the answer! can I can I? pleeeeaase????

[Moi]

oh oh I know the answer! can I can I? pleeeeaase????

Here are the blackboard dusters, they need cleaning... over the other side of the concrete will be a good place, off you go Andy...

[caspernz]

Now hold on just a minute. No reference made to lady luck, shit happens, where are the rabid dogs and can I use ESP?

[Honest Andy]

[Moi]

What I would ask you is how do you know if the vehicle in the next lane is going to create an incident in the first place?

I don't know, but I can operate on the "what if" principle.

If you think it's possible you could just speed up to ensure you were past them in the event they decide to change lanes...

True, but what else could I do?

..but if you are in bumper to bumper traffic in your lane you could try and lane split maybe but that does carry its own risks too. Life is a risk!

Yes, I could lane split, but as you say lane splitting can be risky.

I'd argue that if the traffic is that heavy that it is bumper-to-bumper then there are still things, apart from lane splitting, I could do to avoid being hit - what could that be?

[Moi]

diddums...