How much do we really know about our history?

[Ocean1]

If you read any of the well researched histories the facts, battles and dates are supported.

Correct. What's more his general history of the south matches what I heard almost 60 years ago from possibly the most authoritative Ngai Tahu source available. As does his observation that the deep south Maori language was more or less unintelligible to northern Maori.

[Ocean1]

Don't need to teach them how to fish - they own half of Sealord... teaching them to fish sustainably - ah now theres a problem

Fuck, you're on a roll today, that whole industry is crooked as fuck, the truth ain't in 'em.

We should pull all of the fucking quota until they can demonstrate they've got their shit together.

[Graystone]

I take umbrage with that statement - the Pareto distribution isn't a model that we have implemented and maintained - it's near universal - and not just in economic terms - everything from Sports, to Music, to the abundance of Elements in the Universe.

Whilst there's an element of truth that some of those who appear to have everything may have got it via dubious means consider this statement:

You've got a potentially fatal brain injury and you have to choose a Doctor to help you:

Doctor 1: A recently graduated Med student with no real world experience
Doctor 2: A recently graduated Med student with little real world experience
Doctor 3: A recently graduated Med student also with no real world experience
Doctor 4: A family GP Doctor with a few years experience
Doctor 5: A surgeon with less than 5 years Surgical experience
Doctor 6: A world leading Bran specialist with 20+ years experience

Who do you choose? Because this is at the heart of the matter - most people have no medical experience, a small number have some and an even smaller number have a LOT of Skills and experience - and when we are making choices - we tend to choose those who are successful - which results in them getting more skills and experience which means they get a greater number of opportunities.

I don't think this is something that can be fixed.

If one has a brain injury, shouldn't someone else make the decision?

At the risk of this turning into some sort of Graystone/TDL fallacy saga, circumstances will often dictate that many people are forced to simply choose the doctor that they can afford.

Sounds a bit like an incendiary breeches fallacy.

[pritch]

Correct. What's more his general history of the south matches what I heard almost 60 years ago from possibly the most authoritative Ngai Tahu source available. As does his observation that the deep south Maori language was more or less unintelligible to northern Maori.

I was wondering about that as I read the piece. His references to "kaik" which appears to relate to kainga, similarly to the way that Aoraki relates to Aorangi. I'm not sure if the southern dialect was unintelligible to northern Maori, but you can certainly hear the difference.

[Ocean1]

I was wondering about that as I read the piece. His references to "kaik" which appears to relate to kainga, similarly to the way that Aoraki relates to Aorangi. I'm not sure if the southern dialect was unintelligible to northern Maori, but you can certainly hear the difference.

As a 4 or 5 year old I used to chat for hours to an ancient Maori neighbor. My mother would listen, not understanding a word, and she once had the local dairy owner, a Maori woman from up Kaipara try to have a conversation with me. Neither of us could understand the other at all. I don't remember much of that, certainly none of the actual words, and Charlie's been dead for 55 years.

It's possible that both Charlie and I invented a lot of the language we used, as a lot of grandads/kids do. Whatever it was, it didn't work at all with contemporary te reo. Occasionally Charlie crops up in a dream, and we talk much as we used to. I still can't remember a word.

[husaberg]

Maybe I need to clean my glasses. There must be a very subtle distinction between Doctors #1 and #3. I could understand a bran specialist curing constipation, but brain surgery?

IMO Bran surgeons are just regular doctors

[Paul in NZ]

Well its actually good to see that this conversation has not dissolved into a slanging match and that there are well observed points being made.

Our kids started school in ChCh where the local school had a 3% Maori role yet it supported a fantastic Kapa Haka group. One of the girls was really interested and became a fantastic performer. Of course when we moved North there was not much room for a skinny white new kid in the local Kapa Haka group LOL. OK why is that important?

Even back in the 1880’s Maori sang and dance groups were entertaining tourists but they were pretty darn thin on the ground. In the 60’s it was recognised that there was a danger that these traditional songs and dances would just be heard at the start of an All Blacks test and nowhere else. AND bear in mind that Ka Mate was supposedly composed in 1810 and NOT back in the mists of time. In the late 60’s and early 70’s there was an organised revitalisation of Maori language and culture that quickly became almost a renaissance and IMHO not much of the original ‘genuine’ culture survived unchanged. To be fair that ALL cultures get modernised and adapted over the ages and that’s not all bad. After all if we were being 100% authentic the Maori All Blacks would slay and eat their vanquished foes on the field… (I’d probably pay to see that although I’d definitely pack my own lunch)

ALL Maori culture and protocols have evolved. Half of the ‘customs’ we are fed are part remembered constructs and part genuine.

Much like traditional property rights that the Waitangi tribunal is trying to unpick.

But that’s not the whole story – the Tribunal has plenty of 20th century injustices to resolve as well… Land taken during WW2 and never returned etc.

In short – its complicated

[Madness]

IMO Bran surgeons are just regular doctors

That's a bit roughage.

[Kickaha]

Our kids started school in ChCh where the local school had a 3% Maori role yet it supported a fantastic Kapa Haka group.

We were taught, the stick games, poi, haka etc at Cheviot school in the 70s and they were done on stage at school shows

[TheDemonLord]

At the risk of this turning into some sort of Graystone/TDL fallacy saga, circumstances will often dictate that many people are forced to simply choose the doctor that they can afford.

You are correct - And this where it gets interesting:

We have a hierarchy of Values - obviously it's no point in spending all of your money on a Doctor, if you can't afford to eat and live - but the method we use is to look at factors we place value on (Cost, Skills etc. etc.) and then judge accordingly.

This isn't something that has been created by the west or is imposed by capitalism (as per the implied claim) it's something far deeper.

[Katman]

But that’s not the whole story – the Tribunal has plenty of 20th century injustices to resolve as well… Land taken during WW2 and never returned etc.

That's a good point.

The land that the Papakura Army Camp stood on was taken from the McLennan family at the start of WW2.

They were told about 20 years ago that if they wanted to lay any claim to the land now that they would be expected to pay what it was valued at with all the amenities that it has today.

Unfortunately for the McLennan family there wasn't a Disputes process that would allow them to demand the land back for the pittance they were probably paid at the time.

[Paul in NZ]

We were taught, the stick games, poi, haka etc at Cheviot school in the 70s and they were done on stage at school shows

same here but modern Kapa Haka is very different...

Think how much its all changed over 100's of years

[jellywrestler]

so whay do we have to keep on paying out for this nearly 200 years after it's happened, where else in the world is this still happening, many many people have been moved on from their land over time, what is the time limit on claims for them?

[Paul in NZ]

so whay do we have to keep on paying out for this nearly 200 years after it's happened, where else in the world is this still happening, many many people have been moved on from their land over time, what is the time limit on claims for them?

To the best of my knowledge there isn't one.

Various people have suggested that there should be a time limit but I guess the gravy train is so big now and there are so many specialists depending on it for a very good income that it will just roll on forever... You do realise that when a claim is accepted it is subject to legal aid right?

Not withstanding that a part of the original intent was to protect Maori from exploitation by private settlement companies and individuals and was reluctantly OK'd in principle by the British Foreign Office I suspect if they knew then what we know now they wouldn't have bothered.

The un funny thing is that despite all the settlements and the $$ the outcomes for poor Maori people are as bad if not worse than ever. In particular if you don't have a tribal / group connection you have no way of accessing any $$...

While good intentioned its just not working is it...

[Paul in NZ]

As a 4 or 5 year old I used to chat for hours to an ancient Maori neighbor. My mother would listen, not understanding a word, and she once had the local dairy owner, a Maori woman from up Kaipara try to have a conversation with me. Neither of us could understand the other at all. I don't remember much of that, certainly none of the actual words, and Charlie's been dead for 55 years.

It's possible that both Charlie and I invented a lot of the language we used, as a lot of grandads/kids do. Whatever it was, it didn't work at all with contemporary te reo. Occasionally Charlie crops up in a dream, and we talk much as we used to. I still can't remember a word.

OK a little history as I remember it… No while I’m old I’m not that old so mostly from reading the popular histories.

When Maori first arrived here (lets say 900 years ago) they possessed open ocean voyaging technology. Relatively quickly in say 100 years or so, they had located most of the valuable resources they required. Namely sources of minerals for tools, protein (seals and Moa) and suitable land for gardening. Unfortunately its rare to never that all 3 things were present at any 1 site so there was a considerable amount of travelling. Indeed its highly likely that return trips were made to the points of origin as well. In this era everyone likely spoke the same dialect.

Eventually people sort of specialised. They would build more permanent camps where a certain resource existed and trade for what they didn’t have. That was the start of the tribal era. Since gardening was only really suited for warmer places the populations centred to the north.
Eventually open ocean voyaging technology was lost and coastal voyages were the norm. Local dialects appeared BUT norther tribes could still understand enough to get by with southern ones..

Some resources dried up (Moa) and as the populations increased demands / contests for resources produced conflict and tribal wars began. Given the weaponry these didn’t really impact population numbers much.

Europeans arrived and Maori figured out pretty fast that access to new technology from muskets, metal tools, clothing and boats/ships gave one group a massive advantage. Pre treaty chiefs competed to encourage settles to get access to these things. Education was highly valued…

Once muskets appeared in numbers it was all on. Muskets coupled with European diseases decimated the populations and muskets in particular meant long held grudges we dragged up, had an UTU sticker plastered over it and used as an excuse to butcher.

Increasing settler number started to pressure local population and eventually we had the treaty