Four dead and two hurt today

[SaferRides]

The Kiwi psyche doesn't help either. Suggest to a born again biker that some training might be a good idea and they'll probably tell you to fuck off.

It's good to see the interest by some posting here about the Ride Forever courses. Make them compulsory though and people would be much more negative.

[rastuscat]

The Kiwi psyche doesn't help either. Suggest to a born again biker that some training might be a good idea and they'll probably tell you to fuck off.

It's good to see the interest by some posting here about the Ride Forever courses. Make them compulsory though and people would be much more negative.

That's the irony. ACC wanted to make Ride Forever training as accessible as possible, that's why they subsidise it so much.

Trouble is, if you make something free, people enrol, then often don't turn up. They have no skin in the game, so just don't care. That's hard to make work commercially, as the training is delivered under contract by real world companies. ACC only pays contractors for those people who actually turn up.

So ACC pay a subsidy, making the R4E courses cheap.

They are also linked to the CBTA scheme. People seem to think they are a compulsory part of CBTA, but that's not true. However, if you do a CBTA assessment without having done thew appropriate R4E course, you are most unlikely to know what you are being assessed on, and you'll be taking a punt as to passing, instead of actually having the confidence to pass well.

So, using subsidies and a link to driver licensing, ACC incentivises R4E training.

But if they make it compulsory, well, ironically less people would do it. It's a step too far. Such is the psyche of a lot of us.

It's a fact of life that the harder you make something, the greater non-compliance you'll get.

[KezzaCFC]

They aren't constrained by LAMS regulations. That's how the regulation works, why would anyone be surprised that the more experienced riders choose bigger bikes?

I'll just ignore the "almost guarantee" thing and the "high powered weekend warrior boomer" tag as the emotive bullshit it is. Apart from maybe pointing out that most 1200cc cruisers don't have significantly more horsepower than some piddly 400cc options. Also perhaps to point out that it's nobody's fucking business what bike those weekend warrior boomer arseholes chose to ride, and nor should it be.

Ahh see you are assuming because you have the credentials to ride you also have the experience. And rightly so obviously.
However, take my situation for example, I ride a 300 and I ride EVERYDAY, I do have the license to go bigger, but Im in my late 20's and just bought a house so that isn't my priority.
Now remember ive only ridden a 300. Say I stop riding for 25 years due to family commitments, then I become mortgage free, kids have left, I now have 20k to blow on a bike. Oo an R1, I'll get that. Are you going to 2 up with me knowing my history? Fuck no! Would you 2 up me now? Probably not, but you get the point.

[Ocean1]

Ahh see you are assuming because you have the credentials to ride you also have the experience. And rightly so obviously.
However, take my situation for example, I ride a 300 and I ride EVERYDAY, I do have the license to go bigger, but Im in my late 20's and just bought a house so that isn't my priority.
Now remember ive only ridden a 300. Say I stop riding for 25 years due to family commitments, then I become mortgage free, kids have left, I now have 20k to blow on a bike. Oo an R1, I'll get that. Are you going to 2 up with me knowing my history? Fuck no! Would you 2 up me now? Probably not, but you get the point.

No I'm not, it's the authorities that use licence duration to decide competence, I couldn't give a fuck how an individual decides what they'r competent to ride, like i said it's their business.

How can people get so confused about personal responsibility?

[Banditbandit]

Works for me.

On a more serious note when are we going to own this? Instead of bandying stats around.

It's always someone else.

We just finished a research project into drivers attitudes. In a very academic way, and I'll translate for the current audience, here's what we confirmed.

Almost everyone thinks they are better than average. Now, I'm no statistician, but that can't be true. Or the average would be higher.

Almost everyone thinks everyone else is the problem.

Almost everyone thinks education is a good idea. But only for everyone else. Very few see the need to do it themselves.

Almost everyone thinks the drivers in this country are awful. But almost nobody wants speed limits to be reduced. Go figure. We all support bad drivers, driving at unsafe speeds.

Owning the problem means owning the solutions. This is my insight. People turning across our path are always going to happen, but let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like increasing our awareness, anticipating the error, factoring it into our positioning and speed.

But nah, easier to bang away about how everyone else is the problem.

I totally agree ... like the TV ads say "Everyone thinks they drive well - I have never seen anyone crash well .. "

You missed one out ...

I belong to the rebellion group - I ride as a rebellion - and I break the law as a deliberate act ..

(Yeah - sometimes I get caught and pay a fine .. that's an accepted consequence)

I've survived 45 years of rebellious riding ... I'm lucky (or maybe above average - I stress maybe 'cause some of the people I ride with a way way quicker than me ...) .. but lots have not survived ...

(The night I learnt a very close friend had dumped his bike while drunk and was killed - I got totally drunk and rode home ... very stupid - lucky to still be alive - I don't do that shit any more)

I don't ride a harley as many of the rebellious group do - and many of them I see are actually shit useless on the bloody road lice ... If they ride rebelliously they are way more likely to dump it and die .. and they do ... pushing their symbols of rebellion way beyond the rider's limits - or being just plain stupid. I do ride fast, I don't pass on blind corners or other stupid shit I see ...

Your problem (or the authorities problem) is to how to reach this group - because we simply won't listen ... we are totally anti-authoritarian ..

[KezzaCFC]

No I'm not, it's the authorities that use licence duration to decide competence, I couldn't give a fuck how an individual decides what they'r competent to ride, like i said it's their business.

How can people get so confused about personal responsibility?

I agree its 100% personal responsibility, but incompetence affects us all (throughout all age groups)..higher rego fee's, bad media, therefore our business. I opening a total different kettle of fish there though

[Banditbandit]

That's the irony. ACC wanted to make Ride Forever training as accessible as possible, that's why they subsidise it so much.

Trouble is, if you make something free, people enrol, then often don't turn up. They have no skin in the game, so just don't care. That's hard to make work commercially, as the training is delivered under contract by real world companies. ACC only pays contractors for those people who actually turn up.

Yeah - all of the above - I have done training course - I learnt to handle the bike a lot better, increased my confidence, and it made me faster - DID NOT change my attitude .. or my behavior on the road ..

That's a real baseline problem the authorities are facing - not only ability and knowledge but attitude - and some of us are totally anti-authoritarian.

[RDJ]

I've checked with Ride Forever a few times for courses but none within almost 3 hours' ride from where I live.

[Swoop]

...let's look for what we can do to overcome those errors. Like awareness...

Thinking about the other thread on helmet choices and mentioned lots of times is the field of view vertically. "drop down visors limiting view" etc, when not once has there been a mention about different types of helmets reducing peripheral view.
I like the fit of Shoei lids, but am not happy about the restriction of peripheral view. So I don't buy them.

...and each time they do you just dumb down the drivers on these roads, they're all driving round in a day dream, and dead scared of getting nabbed trying to get past someone who is five ks under or incompetant which just means everyones more pissed off.

The "solution" is lowering the speed limits. this means drivers have more time to look at their phones ... resulting in more crashes & calls for lower speed limits. Rinse & repeat.
The real solution is riding / driving to the conditions.

Cassina back under another name? Doesn't listen or understand anything

The tone of the reply sounded more like SuckMyCockman.

Said it further up this thread. We all think drivers are crap, but we're happy to have their kinetic energy and mistakes continue to happen at the speeds they do.

So long as they stay in their lane and also stay on their side of the road, they can do what they like. Someone crossing the centreline is probably the contributing factor in the majority of crashes.

[eldog]

Thinking about the restriction of peripheral view probably the contributing factor in the majority of crashes.

According to a certain KB member who must NOT be mentioned.

That and quadraped animals

[SaferRides]

Yeah - all of the above - I have done training course - I learnt to handle the bike a lot better, increased my confidence, and it made me faster - DID NOT change my attitude .. or my behavior on the road ..

That's a real baseline problem the authorities are facing - not only ability and knowledge but attitude - and some of us are totally anti-authoritarian.

Yeah, a good point. Since doing the Silver course, I feel more confident cornering and am going faster. But hopefully also safer because of better positioning on corner exits.

[rastuscat]

Thinking about the other thread on helmet choices and mentioned lots of times is the field of view vertically. "drop down visors limiting view" etc, when not once has there been a mention about different types of helmets reducing peripheral view.
I like the fit of Shoei lids, but am not happy about the restriction of peripheral view. So I don't buy them.
.

Peripheral vision is an interesting concept.

Foveal vision is that which your eyes can see, and which your mind can comprehend. If you are driving at 50 kmh, you have a certain cone of foveal vision, which your eyes can see and your mind can register. As you increase speed, your foveal vision narrows. When you get to, maybe 200 kmh ish, you can see what's directly ahead, and not much in your periphery.

You can open up your peripheral vision by slowing down. It allows your eyes and brain to take in more. Or you can resort to something we recommend on Ride Forever courses, called scanning. Scanning refers to moving your head, and as a result moving your foveal visual cone from side to side, so you can see more and comprehend more.

It's easy to follow a motorcyclist and see who scans. A lot of very experienced riders just stare at the place they are going. The folk who have progressed through CBTA have had scanning drilled into them, which likely means they will take in the cars that are going to pull out into their path far earlier.

I coach people to turn their head in the direction of anywhere a vehicle might enter their path.

Interesting concept. I've never found helmet openings to be a problem, I move my head. I think it's unlikely that Shoei make an unsafe helmet, but then, helmet choice is very personal preference.

Have a look at this, it is the CBTA guide. On page 8 and 9 it has the CBTA standards. Some very experienced riders could learn stuff from this, which new people are learning these days.

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/Driv...urse-guide.pdf

[FJRider]

... I like the fit of Shoei lids, but am not happy about the restriction of peripheral view. So I don't buy them.

A simple turn of the head each way ... which we should be doing anyway at regular intervals ... and more often on busy areas would solve the issue.

The "solution" is lowering the speed limits. this means drivers have more time to look at their phones ... resulting in more crashes & calls for lower speed limits. Rinse & repeat.
The real solution is riding / driving to the conditions.

If everybody rode/drove to the conditions ... there wouldn't be as big an issue on any of the roads ... with any of the issues.

(Too) Many don't/wont. Thus the knee-jerk reaction of the authorities is then to reduce the speed limits in those areas.

Any crashes thereafter should be then at slower speeds ... that's if the speed limits are actually being obeyed. If they're not ... all bets are off and nothing has changed.

Then the authorities go to plan B. Which is usually reduce the speed limit ... again. And put bigger speed limit signs up.

So long as they stay in their lane and also stay on their side of the road, they can do what they like. Someone crossing the centreline is probably the contributing factor in the majority of crashes.

But (TOO) many don't keep to their side of their lane.

Which means to motorcyclists ... riding on or NEAR the center-line could be an accident waiting to happen.

[FJRider]

How can people get so confused about personal responsibility?

Simple ... There's no confusion ... they just don't give a fuck about anybody but themselves. And for them ... there the issue ends.

[roogazza]

Peripheral vision is an interesting concept.

Foveal vision is that which your eyes can see, and which your mind can comprehend. If you are driving at 50 kmh, you have a certain cone of foveal vision, which your eyes can see and your mind can register. As you increase speed, your foveal vision narrows. When you get to, maybe 200 kmh ish, you can see what's directly ahead, and not much in your periphery.
You can open up your peripheral vision by slowing down. It allows your eyes and brain to take in more.

Foveal ,thats a new word for me at least.
I don't think there's any doubt that some humans have faster brains. I know I have to re programme if I haven't been driving/riding at speed for a bit. Take racing drivers/riders , I bet they see things others don't.
Maybe in some ,the Foveal visions narrows thru fear ????? Just a couple of thoughts....Interesting tho.