The firearm thread

[jafagsx250]

No you clearly cant read. You just wish to attempt to change the context.
I replied to this.


The gun lobby was 100% opposed to any changes to licencing in NZ prior to the shooting. That is what cost them any credibility. Gun city also initiated legal action against the police.
Guess what happened? those same rules they opposed were shown to be necessary.

COLFO opposes:
 Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
 Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
 Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.

You can prance around on KB puffing your chest out, going on that you are right and a expert on gun laws and preventing incidents like this as much as you like, it will not get you anything but sympathy.
The attitude you display now is what cost you the semi autos.
Ask yourself this, did you really need a A class AR15,AR10 and legal sale of large cap mags.

You can't read either. I supported 30 round mags being E cat license to buy. That was the only thing that we needed to change.

The issue with any amendments is that gun grabbers always add other stuff in.

We give an inch and they take a mile. Much like the new laws.

I have a perfectly reasonable attitude.

Yes I do.

[husaberg]

You can't read either. I supported 30 round mags being E cat license to buy. That was the only thing that we needed to change.

The issue with any amendments is that gun grabbers always add other stuff in.

We give an inch and they take a mile. Much like the new laws.

I have a perfectly reasonable attitude.

Yes I do.

really You want some sort of kudos because you supported it afterwards, when it was too late as 50 innocent people were already dead, how about before hand, did you support changes then? I ask as there wasn't a single post prior to the 50 people getting killed from you about changing the mag laws.
The NZ firearms lobby group was flat out opposed to any rules or cat change.
The firearms owners had a mile taken as they refused to budge an inch.

The issue with any amendments is that gun grabbers always add other stuff in.

Owning a firearm in NZ is a privilege rather than a right ,you have had some of those privileges revoked, deal with it.

[jafagsx250]

really You want some sort of kudos because you supported it afterwards, when it was too late as 50 innocent people were already dead, how about before hand, did you support changes then? I ask as there wasn't a single post prior to the 50 people getting killed from you about changing the mag laws.
The NZ firearms lobby group was flat out opposed to any rules or cat change.
The firearms owners had a mile taken as they refused to budge an inch.


Owning a firearm in NZ is a privilege rather than a right ,you have had some of those privileges revoked, deal with it.

I have always supported E cat mags with E cat license

Well the gun grabbers just proved our point. Lots of times they said meet us halfway. And they only had proposals that affected the law abiding and nothing about criminals.

[husaberg]

I have always supported E cat mags with E cat license

Well the gun grabbers just proved our point. Lots of times they said meet us halfway. And they only had proposals that affected the law abiding and nothing about criminals.

Really show me a post that says this prior to the incident.
I posted the lobby groups position it wasn't we will meet you half way, it was over our dead bodies will we agree to any changes to the cat rules.

OLFO opposes:
 Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
 Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
 Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105...tomatic-rifles
It turns out the magic number was 50 in a few minutes was the required number pof dead bodies to get them to admit their position was incorrect.
But simply by then, it was too little far to late.
The fact it had cross party support and is supported by the vast majority of Kiwis should give you a clue that your position is in the minority.

The poll of voters regarding the new gun laws showed that 61% of Kiwis thought the new law was "about right".

A further 19% of people said the law does not actually go far enough
14% of those surveyed thought the legislation went too far.
5 per cent of people said they did not know. 2% refused to answer.

So unlike the claims of wide spread support only 14 percent of Kiwis think the gun laws went too far.
80% of kiwis either agree with the changes or actually want to see them go even further.

[jafagsx250]

Really show me a post that says this prior to the incident.
I posted the lobby groups position it wasn't we will meet you half way, it was over our dead bodies will we agree to any changes to the cat rules.
It turns out the magic number was 50 in a few minutes was the required number pof dead bodies to get them to admit their position was incorrect.
After that, it was too little to late.
The fact it had cross party support and is supported by the vast majority of Kiwis should give you a clue that your position is in the minority.

???? The lack of law about mag purchasing has never popped up in the thread before. You're acting like I can't have an opinion because I never posted it on the Internet.

No. We never agreed. It was rushed undemocratic law and we were told to stay out of something that will affect us.

Cross party support was a matter of political survival. Too many people with no idea about guns wanted everything banned.

Just because we're a minority doesn't mean we can't be right. This law will back fire spectacularly. Just you watch.

[husaberg]

???? The lack of law about mag purchasing has never popped up in the thread before. You're acting like I can't have an opinion because I never posted it on the Internet.

No. We never agreed. It was rushed undemocratic law and we were told to stay out of something that will affect us.

Cross party support was a matter of political survival. Too many people with no idea about guns wanted everything banned.

Just because we're a minority doesn't mean we can't be right. This law will back fire spectacularly. Just you watch.

Undemocratic that really funny did you think you would get to vote on each and every law change.
The only party that didnt support the law being changed consisted of 13,075 votes or .0.5% of the NZ vote.
AS for saying you held an opinion prior ,as you cant prove this, nor did you make any submissions, who cares, its just you talking and making more unsubstantiated claims.
The only thing that's currently backfiring is the neurons in your skull cavity.

[jafagsx250]

Undemocratic that really funny did you think you would get to vote on each and every law change.
The only party that didnt support the law being changed consisted of 13,075 votes or .0.5% of the NZ vote.
AS for saying you held an opinion prior ,as you cant prove this, nor did you make any submissions, who cares, its just you talking and making more unsubstantiated claims.
The only thing that's currently backfiring is the neurons in your skull cavity.

Ah yes. Resorting to insults because you can by the disprove facts.

[husaberg]

Ah yes. Resorting to insults because you can by the disprove facts.

Funny considering You haven't produced a single fact, only your opinion.

I doubt any of them have actually read the law.
That's not gun owners fault.
That's the cops and stupid politicians making rushed laws and not focusing on the standard capacity magazine. Anyone could have bought a 30 round mag. It should have been restricted to the E cat holders.

That was the only thing that we needed to change.
The issue with any amendments is that gun grabbers always add other stuff in.
We give an inch and they take a mile. Much like the new laws.

It was rushed undemocratic law and we were told to stay out of something that will affect us.
Cross party support was a matter of political survival. Too many people with no idea about guns wanted everything banned.
Just because we're a minority doesn't mean we can't be right. This law will back fire spectacularly. Just you watch.

[jasonu]

Funny that's what you would make out of someone posting something about confirmation bias.


So if it suits you and its in the NZ herald ,its great, its the almighty Bible FFS.
but if it doesn't suit your opinion the herald is full of shit....interesting.............Some might say thats pretty hypocritical of you.

Looks like Prick is going to have to pay for his fake news tidbits now. On the bright side he still has Vanity Fair for free one eyed liberal bullshit.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...ectid=12226437

[TheDemonLord]

Rather well. Maybe before you post stuff you might want to look further then the NRA website.
There are more domestic homicides and suicides with a firearm in Switzerland than pretty much anywhere else in Europe except Finland.

Why are you including Suicides? Unless you want to artificially inflate the stats...

Switzerland in 2018 0.15 Homocides per 100,000 people by Firearm.

Beating out Sweden, France, Italy, Spain etc. (Ya'know - European countries)

Incorrect they are able to purchase the rifle but only if they are deemed to be competent and sane.

So, they can (if they want and if they meet the criteria) able to keep a FULLY AUTOMATIC, ACTUAL Assault Rifle. Glad you confirmed my point.

Also your source that you block quoted started out by saying Full autos are banned, then goes on to say they can be acquired by Permit - so which is it?

Also stats they allow the free purchase of Semi-Autos, so...

incorrect Less than 12% do. They also dont store ethe ammunition there..........

That's still a lot of people, with fully Auto Assault rifles at home.

2011 referendum initiative to keep all militia firearms in a central arsenal - because, he says, of the evidence provided by recent statistics.
"Forty-three per cent of homicides are domestic related and 90% of those homicides are carried out with guns," he says.
"And we don't get bullets any more," he adds. "The Army doesn't give ammunition now - it's all kept in a central arsenal." This measure was introduced by Switzerland's Federal Council in 2007.
Mathias carefully puts away his pistol and shakes his head firmly when I ask him if he feels safer having a gun at home, explaining that even if he had ammunition, he would not be allowed to use it against an intruder.
"The gun is not given to me to protect me or my family," he says. "I have been given this gun by my country to serve my country - and for me it is an honour to take care of it. I think it is a good thing for the state to give this responsibility to people."
In order to purchase ammunition, the buyer must follow the same legal rules that apply when buying guns. The buyer must provide the following information to the seller (art. 15, 16 WG/LArm; art. 24 WV/OArm):[2][1]
a passport or other valid official identification (the holder must be over 18 years of age and not psychiatrically disqualified nor identified as posing security problems. Further, they must not be a citizen of the following countries (art. 12 WV/OArm): Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Algeria and Albania).
a copy of their criminal record not older than 3 months, or a weapons acquistion permit which isn't older than 2 years, if asked by the seller (art. 24 § 3 WV/OArm)

They don't allow ownership of people from countries with historic problems with Islam.... Interesting...

As for the Aquisition permit - apparently people just buy one every 2 years and keep it on them for when they go to a rifle shop.

slightly less. but with far stricter laws.

On what planet do they have stricter laws? Also the figure you are going off is only for registered rifles, hunting rifles are completely unregistered - a reasonable estimate is that they ownership rate may be as high as 50%

You've confirmed they can own full autos and no restriction on semi-autos, so they had more permissive laws than us prior the the AAB.

Yet they clearly dont, they have three times the homicide death rate as NZ does.

0.11 vs 0.15 - yeah, that's really 3 times bigger...

Unless you are deliberately including Suicide to artificially increase the stats..

But if we are to follow swiss laws lets do all of them
Motorsport road racing circuits and events were banned in Switzerland in 1955.

Animals may not be kept by themselves but only with a companion.
The 2008 addendum to the Swiss animal rights code specifies for each animal how many others of their kind are required by law. In other words, a guinea pig requires at least one companion, and so does a mouse or a ferret!

It is unlawful to slam a car door after 10 PM

It is considered an offense to mow your lawn on a Sunday because it causes too much noise.

It is required that every car with snow tires has to have a sticker on its dashboard which tells that the driver should not drive faster than 160 km/h with these tires.

Clothes may not be hung to dry on Sunday.

You may not wash your car in your driveway on a Sunday.

Smells like misdirection.

The point is:

Switzerland: Full Autos and Semi-Autos a plenty, all stored at home. (which in some respects is more permissive than the US, since they can own Full Autos produced after 1986)

If the gist of your Memes is correct, then that should make Switzerland the world leader in Gun crime and yet, it clearly doesn't.

Thus the problem is not the Gun, but the people who get access to them.

[husaberg]

Why are you including Suicides? Unless you want to artificially inflate the stats...

Switzerland in 2018 0.15 Homocides per 100,000 people by Firearm.

Beating out Sweden, France, Italy, Spain etc. (Ya'know - European countries)



So, they can (if they want and if they meet the criteria) able to keep a FULLY AUTOMATIC, ACTUAL Assault Rifle. Glad you confirmed my point.

Also your source that you block quoted started out by saying Full autos are banned, then goes on to say they can be acquired by Permit - so which is it?

Also stats they allow the free purchase of Semi-Autos, so...



That's still a lot of people, with fully Auto Assault rifles at home.



They don't allow ownership of people from countries with historic problems with Islam.... Interesting...

As for the Aquisition permit - apparently people just buy one every 2 years and keep it on them for when they go to a rifle shop.



On what planet do they have stricter laws? Also the figure you are going off is only for registered rifles, hunting rifles are completely unregistered - a reasonable estimate is that they ownership rate may be as high as 50%

You've confirmed they can own full autos and no restriction on semi-autos, so they had more permissive laws than us prior the the AAB.




0.11 vs 0.15 - yeah, that's really 3 times bigger...

Unless you are deliberately including Suicide to artificially increase the stats..





Smells like misdirection.

The point is:

Switzerland: Full Autos and Semi-Autos a plenty, all stored at home. (which in some respects is more permissive than the US, since they can own Full Autos produced after 1986)

If the gist of your Memes is correct, then that should make Switzerland the world leader in Gun crime and yet, it clearly doesn't.

Thus the problem is not the Gun, but the people who get access to them.

Is it any wonder i often totally ignore you.
You got caught in a fresh series of lies and now you are attempting to weasel out of it.
Firearms deaths are firearms deaths you cant say look at the Swiss then say but ignore the ones that used a firearm on themselves.
The Swiss have a 3 times higher rate of death by firearms you are just attempting your normal misdirection that caused you to single out the swiss in the first place.

Here is a hint if you logic was correct there wouldn't be the strong corrections in the figures that there is.
the more guns and the laxer the rules the more thet get killed by firearms on average.
Every single time you get caught in a lie you claim its misdirection while you at the same time try and cling to a series of far fetched and non related examples.
Guess what, you can bitch and moan as much as you want (and we all know you will bitch on endlessly,) but the new law is the law. you can either follow it or be a criminal and go to jail.

[TheDemonLord]

Is it any wonder i often totally ignore you.
You got caught in a fresh series of lies and now you are attempting to weasel out of it.
Firearms deaths are firearms deaths you cant say look at the Swiss then say but ignore the ones that used a firearm on themselves.

Actually, I can, because it's well documented that reducing the access to Firearms does NOT reduce the Suicide rate. People simply use other means.

And exactly what did I lie about? You've confirmed that the Swiss have free reign on Semi-Autos and lawful access to Full Autos in large numbers. You've confirmed they can keep their Service Rifle.
I've pointed out that there is a discrepancy in the rate of reported ownership of rifles in Switzerland, due to the rules around bolt actions not being tracked and that the rate of ownership is higher than the rate of ownership of tracked rifles (which is a little bit less than NZ, therefore the rate of ownership of ALL firearms is going to be higher than NZ)

The point is - If your fundamental point of Bad Gun Kill People Hurr Durr is correct, then Switzerland should be a world leader in Firearm Homocides.

It isn't.

Therefore, your fundamental point is wrong.

[husaberg]

The point is - If your fundamental point of Bad Gun Kill People Hurr Durr is correct, then Switzerland should be a world leader in Firearm Homocides.

It isn't.

Therefore, your fundamental point is wrong.

The fundamental point in my posts is you are to belligerent to realise your points are self centered and wrong. The reason so few care about you losing your AR10 is the attitude you are currently displaying.
Maybe your mind is just too small to be able to comprehend the big picture.
All you can see is what you have lost, rather than what the rest of the country has gained from the law change.

[jafagsx250]

The fundamental point in my posts is you are to belligerent to realise your points are self centered and wrong. The reason so few care about you losing your AR10 is the attitude you are currently displaying.
Maybe your mind is just too small to be able to comprehend the big picture.
All you can see is what you have lost, rather than what the rest of the country has gained from the law change.

They've gained nothing but a false sense of safety. There'll be far more gun crime now that they are banned. I'll be here happy to say that I told you so.

[onearmedbandit]

They've gained nothing but a false sense of safety. There'll be far more gun crime now that they are banned. I'll be here happy to say that I told you so.

With no prejudice I'm interested in the reasoning behind this. I'm not looking to poke holes etc, just educating myself.