The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread?

[TheDemonLord]

Sigh, so you basically confirm that as I said, there are republicans who know he is a dick too.

I never said they didn't exist, I said that there was usually other factors hinting that said other factors were of greater importance than their conservatism.

Ouch, a stinging rebuke on Trump - not.

Well, compared to the other world leaders and what I've critiqued them on, Trump has not done things in a similar vein, so I'm left with that.

But by all means, When he declares a frivolous war or Tramples on my Property rights or actively helps engineer a migrant crisis or fails to properly implement a referendum that was voted on by the people, then I'll have a stinging rebuke for him.

He needed to listen a hell of a lot sooner to qualify as a good leader.

Maybe, Maybe not. It's too early to tell when the right time was. But I feel I need to repeat myself - if in hindsight it shows he made a bad call, then I'll happily critique him then. Those that are critiquing him now are the same lot that critique him on every little thing (imagined or otherwise) and so I put zero stock in their rebukes.

I'm encompassing most of his recent tweets regarding the virus, not cherry picking his one benign one. Downplaying it is a lie, Saying he has a good grasp of science is a lie, saying his gut feeling that the death rate is lower than what WHO is saying is as good as a lie. People (dimwits) look to him for guidance. If taken seriously, his guidance is terrible. If you want me to find his lying tweets, we both know neither of us has enough time to either find or read them.

Okay, given the context isn't what I posted, you can see why I don't consider what I posted a Lie.

But let's take you at your word (because TBH it seems like something he would say). Downplaying something - I can't call that a Lie per se. As I said, It's BAU until it's not.

Good Grasp on Science - Puffery? Yes. Barefaced lie, maybe in the strictest sense, but I again come back to how I listen to Trump's manner of speaking. If he had a good walk, he'd describe it as the greatest walk ever done by anyone. Is it a lie? You could say that, I tend to filter out the self-promotion and aggrandizing as just that. As for overall death rate - we'll see - My prediction is less than 5% of total cases (world wide) will be Fatal, if we find the initial death rate was higher (due to the at-risk population getting infected and dying first), then we'll know his statement was 'true'.

So that would be within your criteria for how you next vote? "Will this leader be shit enough to inspire others around them to become greater?"
Smacking of DMPAAC there bro.

Well, how I next vote will be "Get this Socialist Tooth Fairy out at all costs"...

But in seriousness, If a Leader inspires others to greatness, can they be considered Shit? It's not like the method he's using for inspiration is public executions or similar.

Or perhaps a different way of looking at it - A generation of Kids grew up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation. Based on what they saw (Science Fiction and didn't exist), they were inspired to make those things a reality (Computers capable of playing Music, Tablet computers etc. still holding out for Warp, Phasers and Teleportation...) Or the Sports coach that told the Japanese Rugby team they could beat South Africa - we would have said that was a lie at the time.

If you don't like that he does that or you don't think that is the effect he is having, then that's your opinion - I happen to hold that having someone who continually tells others that they can do it, to be the best etc. etc. whilst being obnoxiously optimistic does have a sort of placebo effect.

How many coffins would it take to make the right decision? Sorry Mr Demonlord, that logic based on all the deaths in a short space of time, and now people are even getting re-infected now - is moronic. You need treatment for the serious case of DMPAAC.

The responses to SARS, H1N1, Avian Bird Flu, Swine Flu etc. and the Good old fashioned 'Flu' is my Yardstick. If I really wanted to be snippy, I'd include Spanish Flu in there, but I don't think an Epidemic in the 1919s/1920s is really a fair comparison.

I was going back to the last time where an emergency requiring cash handouts was last implemented in the US? Are there more recent ones I'm missing?

It wasn't a critique on your choice of example - It's perfect for the point you were making. It was more an observation that you're correct the Democrats sometimes favor big business over the little guy (in fact, given the current leadership race, it seems there's still some hills being died upon on), but I did quantify my statement with a 'typically' - the rest was more a case of I still haven't decided whether I think the government bail out of the banks was right or not.

[Viking01]

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...rus-aid-133732

I liked the last sentence. Given past practice for the US banks and the Pentagon.

[Edit]

Forgot to include the 21 Intelligence agencies in the last sentence. Must not forget the Russian threat.

[Bonez]

Edited for accuracy.

Thank you.

[sugilite:Me]

I never said they didn't exist, I said that there was usually other factors hinting that said other factors were of greater importance than their conservatism.

OK, I'm just saying they exist, and they are the smart ones.

Well, compared to the other world leaders and what I've critiqued them on, Trump has not done things in a similar vein, so I'm left with that.

But by all means, When he declares a frivolous war or Tramples on my Property rights or actively helps engineer a migrant crisis or fails to properly implement a referendum that was voted on by the people, then I'll have a stinging rebuke for him.

Not sure if you talking about Labor or National, as I have seen both bunch of cunts do and don't do that.

Maybe, Maybe not. It's too early to tell when the right time was. But I feel I need to repeat myself - if in hindsight it shows he made a bad call, then I'll happily critique him then. Those that are critiquing him now are the same lot that critique him on every little thing (imagined or otherwise) and so I put zero stock in their rebukes.



Okay, given the context isn't what I posted, you can see why I don't consider what I posted a Lie.

But let's take you at your word (because TBH it seems like something he would say). Downplaying something - I can't call that a Lie per se. As I said, It's BAU until it's not.

Good Grasp on Science - Puffery? Yes. Barefaced lie, maybe in the strictest sense, but I again come back to how I listen to Trump's manner of speaking. If he had a good walk, he'd describe it as the greatest walk ever done by anyone. Is it a lie? You could say that, I tend to filter out the self-promotion and aggrandizing as just that. As for overall death rate - we'll see - My prediction is less than 5% of total cases (world wide) will be Fatal, if we find the initial death rate was higher (due to the at-risk population getting infected and dying first), then we'll know his statement was 'true'.

OK, clearly we have different standards for the type of person who is suitable as being a leader. I do wonder how many free passes you would give trump if he were the labor PM for NZ and he was pulling the same shit, that goes for Dr Gutnuthin too.

Well, how I next vote will be "Get this Socialist Tooth Fairy out at all costs"...

OK, I'm curious what socialist policies has snagglepuss implemented - and just for shits and giggles, lets use the actual definition of Socialism such as wikipedia defines it?

But in seriousness, If a Leader inspires others to greatness, can they be considered Shit? It's not like the method he's using for inspiration is public executions or similar.

Such as someone needing to do their job and clean up after the leader, no. And wanking off about how the virus is a hoax and downplaying it. Ask a supporter who took his advice and is now on their death bed, they may feel he sentenced them to death - extreme I know, but not impossible eh.

Or perhaps a different way of looking at it - A generation of Kids grew up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation. Based on what they saw (Science Fiction and didn't exist), they were inspired to make those things a reality (Computers capable of playing Music, Tablet computers etc. still holding out for Warp, Phasers and Teleportation...) Or the Sports coach that told the Japanese Rugby team they could beat South Africa - we would have said that was a lie at the time.

This reaching definitely is classified as reaching for the stars Mr Demonlord, I'm throwing you off this building to your death, but don't worry because they have tech that can download and upload your consciousness to another body. I'm not lying because it will be available in a feeeeeewwwwww huuuuunnnndreeed yeeeeaaaarrrrsss

If you don't like that he does that or you don't think that is the effect he is having, then that's your opinion - I happen to hold that having someone who continually tells others that they can do it, to be the best etc. etc. whilst being obnoxiously optimistic does have a sort of placebo effect.

Placebo effect? Perfect! Lets book you in for a homeopathy appointment should you get the virus....No?

The responses to SARS, H1N1, Avian Bird Flu, Swine Flu etc. and the Good old fashioned 'Flu' is my Yardstick. If I really wanted to be snippy, I'd include Spanish Flu in there, but I don't think an Epidemic in the 1919s/1920s is really a fair comparison.

I took zero notice of the ones you mention, I'm sure taking notice of this one.

It wasn't a critique on your choice of example - It's perfect for the point you were making. It was more an observation that you're correct the Democrats sometimes favor big business over the little guy (in fact, given the current leadership race, it seems there's still some hills being died upon on), but I did quantify my statement with a 'typically' - the rest was more a case of I still haven't decided whether I think the government bail out of the banks was right or not.

I say there is barely any difference between them. Maybe there once was, but no longer. Obama was bought and paid for by old rich men looking to stay that way.

[oldrider]

Was Adolf Hitler a Zionist Stooge? - https://www.bitchute.com/video/0erLDRJ8FbwA/ - The Adage:- "If you don't know where you are going, how do you know when you get there"? - Springs to mind? (Just sayin like?)

[pritch]

Was Adolf Hitler a Zionist Stooge?

Geez John what next? 4 chan?

[TheDemonLord]

OK, I'm just saying they exist, and they are the smart ones.

Smart? For sure some of them are, but the ones that I'm thinking of (Mitt Romney, for example) have gone against the Trump due to other strongly held beliefs.

Not sure if you talking about Labor or National, as I have seen both bunch of cunts do and don't do that.

All sides were equally represented in that remark, Labour (both NZ and UK), National, Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives.

OK, clearly we have different standards for the type of person who is suitable as being a leader. I do wonder how many free passes you would give trump if he were the labor PM for NZ and he was pulling the same shit, that goes for Dr Gutnuthin too.

That's a good question. And more importantly, one I can answer. I didn't like that Jacinda Ardern got to be PM because of Winnie wanting to get back at National (and get his grubby mitts on the reigns of power).

However, you'll note that I've not said things like 'She's not my Prime Minister', nor have I called for her to be stood-down due to some Trumped up charges. My main point of umbrage with her is the fact that thanks to Her and her Government, I've been treated like a Criminal for a Crime I had no part in doing. That is where I've taken outright hostility towards her and as far as I'm concerned - she and her cronies can Fuck right off.

Up until then, I disagreed with her, mocked her when certain pre-election policies that were clearly pie-in-the-sky from the outset failed, but I've certainly not ridiculed her in the same way that the those that oppose Trump do so.

OK, I'm curious what socialist policies has snagglepuss implemented - and just for shits and giggles, lets use the actual definition of Socialism such as wikipedia defines it?

So that we are clear, I call her a Socialist because she was the President of the Socialist Youth, not because of any Policy (feel free to reference Wikipedia for that Claim).

But since you asked, Kiwibuild had socialistic elements to it (including it's predictable Failure), and like Many Socialists, she's enacted 'strong' new Firearm legislation, Then you've got the usual "Tax the rich" and targeting the "bourgeoisie" - for example stringent new Landlord regulations, that has all the hallmarks of Marxist inspired thinking (including having the opposite effect to what is desired)

Such as someone needing to do their job and clean up after the leader, no. And wanking off about how the virus is a hoax and downplaying it. Ask a supporter who took his advice and is now on their death bed, they may feel he sentenced them to death - extreme I know, but not impossible eh.

This reaching definitely is classified as reaching for the stars Mr Demonlord, I'm throwing you off this building to your death, but don't worry because they have tech that can download and upload your consciousness to another body. I'm not lying because it will be available in a feeeeeewwwwww huuuuunnnndreeed yeeeeaaaarrrrsss

It wasn't reaching for the stars, it's to highlight that confidence begets confidence. You may say it's all BS and a hoax and a trick - That's fine, but it doesn't change the underlying point that self-belief is a powerful and infectious thing.

Placebo effect? Perfect! Lets book you in for a homeopathy appointment should you get the virus....No?

For a Placebo to work, I've got to believe it to work

I took zero notice of the ones you mention, I'm sure taking notice of this one.

Really? Well, I'm so glad you've said that, because you'll notice that one of the ones I sneaked in was SARS - which is also a strain of Coronavirus, with a higher mortality rate (~10%) and had a higher infectiousness rate.

Why didn't you take notice of the other ones? Why are you taking notice of this one? If I was to conjecture part of that answer is to do with the end-of-the-world media hype around it, would you disagree?

I'm not saying it's not a serious issue, only that it might be being hyped up a little bit. What it seems so-far is that if you get it, you live in the west and you aren't over 60 or under 5 and are without a pre-existing Medical condition - you are likely to survive and be fine.

That's not to have no sympathing for the old or infirm (Hell, I have little ones so I've got some concerns), but I think with the current situation, we are in danger of creating bigger problems due to Panic than the Virus.

I say there is barely any difference between them. Maybe there once was, but no longer. Obama was bought and paid for by old rich men looking to stay that way.

Damn that's savage.... I'm sure there is something in there I could disagree with, but I don't think I can bring myself to do so because... Damn...

[sugilite:Me]

All sides were equally represented in that remark, Labour (both NZ and UK), National, Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives.

That's a good question. And more importantly, one I can answer. I didn't like that Jacinda Ardern got to be PM because of Winnie wanting to get back at National (and get his grubby mitts on the reigns of power).

However, you'll note that I've not said things like 'She's not my Prime Minister', nor have I called for her to be stood-down due to some Trumped up charges. My main point of umbrage with her is the fact that thanks to Her and her Government, I've been treated like a Criminal for a Crime I had no part in doing. That is where I've taken outright hostility towards her and as far as I'm concerned - she and her cronies can Fuck right off.

Up until then, I disagreed with her, mocked her when certain pre-election policies that were clearly pie-in-the-sky from the outset failed, but I've certainly not ridiculed her in the same way that the those that oppose Trump do so.

OK, fair enough on nearly all points. I was not disappointed when she got in on the coat tails of Winnie, but are very disappointed with her and hers party lack of action on many things they said they would be hot on. And OK, I will bite, what crime?

So that we are clear, I call her a Socialist because she was the President of the Socialist Youth, not because of any Policy (feel free to reference Wikipedia for that Claim).

But since you asked, Kiwibuild had socialistic elements to it (including it's predictable Failure), and like Many Socialists, she's enacted 'strong' new Firearm legislation, Then you've got the usual "Tax the rich" and targeting the "bourgeoisie" - for example stringent new Landlord regulations, that has all the hallmarks of Marxist inspired thinking (including having the opposite effect to what is desired)

Ahhhh, ok, fair enough on the title. Tough gig on the firearms thing. She had to do something and I see no need for the types of weapons she banned. I live rural, the hunters are still hunting just fine.

For a Placebo to work, I've got to believe it to work

The Trump brand is shit.

Really? Well, I'm so glad you've said that, because you'll notice that one of the ones I sneaked in was SARS - which is also a strain of Coronavirus, with a higher mortality rate (~10%) and had a higher infectiousness rate.

Why didn't you take notice of the other ones? Why are you taking notice of this one? If I was to conjecture part of that answer is to do with the end-of-the-world media hype around it, would you disagree?

I'm not saying it's not a serious issue, only that it might be being hyped up a little bit. What it seems so-far is that if you get it, you live in the west and you aren't over 60 or under 5 and are without a pre-existing Medical condition - you are likely to survive and be fine.

That's not to have no sympathing for the old or infirm (Hell, I have little ones so I've got some concerns), but I think with the current situation, we are in danger of creating bigger problems due to Panic than the Virus.

Sars total deaths ever = 774, Italy in just the last 24 hours 475!!! If you were to align all those 475 coffins, that is dam near 1 kilometer! You truly seem to have a massive disconnect on this one, I have no idea why. That death rate alone gets my attention. I'm not going to engage any further with you on this subject, you are just so far of beam with it, I see little point.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...ths-in-one-day

Damn that's savage.... I'm sure there is something in there I could disagree with, but I don't think I can bring myself to do so because... Damn...

He had me fooled, then I watched the documentary by Michael Moore on the flint water reply, then I got to see Obamas true colours.
POS

[TheDemonLord]

OK, fair enough on nearly all points. I was not disappointed when she got in on the coat tails of Winnie, but are very disappointed with her and hers party lack of action on many things they said they would be hot on. And OK, I will bite, what crime?

To add to that - My Wife (who has Voted Greens, National and Labour - go figure) is really pissed off at the Greens, I told her when she voted that she was in effect voting for the Communist party of NZ, She voted for them because she likes the sound of some of their environmental policies (and to be really fair, I think the Greens Public transport policy was the most well thought out) - and now they've shown their true colours in power (being a bunch of Rabid SJW Marxists that don't love the environment, they just hate Capitalism), she'll never vote for them again. Which is good on two fronts, the most important of course being winning an argument with my Wife.

Same one discussed below.

Ahhhh, ok, fair enough on the title. Tough gig on the firearms thing. She had to do something and I see no need for the types of weapons she banned. I live rural, the hunters are still hunting just fine.

Do something - sure.
What she did - She can fuck off.

There were many many alternatives and alternatives that would have gotten widespread support from the Firearms community.

But she went with the most vindictive, punitive measure possible - Finally her and her Cronies had the tragedy and corpses they needed to ram Firearm changes through. I'll never forgive her or anyone tangentially associated with that for it.

On top of that, although I thought her initial actions after the event were full of Empathy etc. What she did subsequently has convinced me that it was nothing more than a well-rehearsed act in order to further her international agendas.

As for no need - Need is a very flimsy rationale on which to base Laws. You don't 'Need' a car, you don't 'need' a swimming pool, you don't 'need' DIY etc. etc.

The Trump brand is shit.

Depends on what you consider a good brand or not. The fact we had all heard of it well before his run for the Presidency, on some level, means it's a good brand - it's got recognition and therefore value. I personally don't care for what the Brand is selling or represents.

Sars total deaths ever = 774, Italy in just the last 24 hours 475!!! If you were to align all those 475 coffins, that is dam near 1 kilometer! You truly seem to have a massive disconnect on this one, I have no idea why. That death rate alone gets my attention. I'm not going to engage any further with you on this subject, you are just so far of beam with it, I see little point.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...ths-in-one-day

There's some differences to be fair, the biggest being that SARS was much more visible when it was contagious and therefore much easier to isolate and quarantine. There's also some murmurings (and to be clear I consider these as conjecture at best) that the high number of cases is down more to China's inaction on the initial spread of infection and then certain countries, like Italy, making bad calls.

Looking at the news this morning, the Death rate is around 3-4% - Which is bad, I don't want people to die, but remember when I said anything over 5% I'd be concerned with.

He had me fooled, then I watched the documentary by Michael Moore on the flint water reply, then I got to see Obamas true colours.
POS

Again, Oof! Savage!

[Katman]

Looking at the news this morning, the Death rate is around 3-4% - Which is bad, I don't want people to die, but remember when I said anything over 5% I'd be concerned with.

Remind me again - what's the death rate from measles?

[TheDemonLord]

Remind me again - what's the death rate from measles?

In the western world with above 90% vaccination rates? 0%.

and I'd like to keep it that way.

Try again.

[Katman]

In the western world with above 90% vaccination rates? 0%.

and I'd like to keep it that way.

Try again.

According to the CDC, in the decade before 1963 (so before the vaccine was even available) 3 to 4 million people in the States were infected with measles each year and 400 to 500 died from it.

I'm sure even you can work out the death rate from those figures.

[TheDemonLord]

According to the CDC, in the decade before 1963 (so before the vaccine was even available) 3 to 4 million people in the States were infected with measles each year and 400 to 500 died from it.

I'm sure even you can work out the death rate from those figures.

You'd do better to look at Samoa - I believe it was around a 2% mortality rate. The difference here being there's a proven way to reduce the rate to 0.

When there's a method to reduce the rate for (Insert new virus from China here) to 0%, then you'll have your equivalence required to make that critique.

[Katman]

You'd do better to look at Samoa - I believe it was around a 2% mortality rate.

I'll just remind you that you said this.......

Which is bad, I don't want people to die, but remember when I said anything over 5% I'd be concerned with.

[TheDemonLord]

I'll just remind you that you said this.......

I know....

The problem with the equivalence you are trying to setup is that little addendum I added:

"The difference here being there's a proven way to reduce the rate to 0."