Stupid World

[Ocean1]

Which proves my point, people can't even agree on what is or isn't cancel culture.

Relephant: https://pc.blogspot.com/

[R650R]

What did Gillette do?

Put out a tv add of men shaving looking into mirror at themselves saying we’re all wife beaters and need to stop it. It really sucks because the equivalent Schlick razor is not as good

[R650R]

Part of the issue is that JK isn't a Conservative, she is a TERF, she's also a Women - but most of all... She's a Billionaire (or at least, close to it).

It's the last part that means she's un-cancellable, because her wealth isn't dependent on a continued relationship. She isn't the face of a company that could be replaced.

Please don’t reaffirm their abuse of the alphabet and grammar. It’s another oxymoronic term as by definition a radical feminist doesn’t want blokes with boobs in female toilet facilities.
I’ve yet to hear of any trans exclusionary radical toxic male chauvinists. I’d love to hear them try chant that acronym lol

Perhaps we should start call them Binary unbelieving radical people. BURP’s
If someone comes up with an acronym that works with Farts there’s beer to be had.

[TheDemonLord]

Which proves my point, people can't even agree on what is or isn't cancel culture.

I disagree.

I think there is a pretty objective definition of what Cancel Culture is - which is weaponizing a small number of individuals to put pressure on 3rd party groups, services or entities to cease their business relationship(s) with a person or entity the aforementioned individuals don't like, often using tactics to make the issue appear more widely settled than it actually is.

Then there are people who lie about what Cancel culture is. Often they are the same people who lie about what Wokeness is.

[TheDemonLord]

Please don’t reaffirm their abuse of the alphabet and grammar. It’s another oxymoronic term as by definition a radical feminist doesn’t want blokes with boobs in female toilet facilities.
I’ve yet to hear of any trans exclusionary radical toxic male chauvinists. I’d love to hear them try chant that acronym lol

Perhaps we should start call them Binary unbelieving radical people. BURP’s
If someone comes up with an acronym that works with Farts there’s beer to be had.

TERF is somewhat useful though - because I'm not a radical Feminist and despite agreeing on some of the biological arguments - I have a large criticism of many TERFs (such as JK Rowling, Posie Parker, Julie Bindell etc.) as pointing out that half of their rhetorhic is what enabled this phenomenon and they refuse to take any responsibility for it or to repudiate their radical ideas that lead to this issue.

[onearmedbandit]

I disagree.

I think there is a pretty objective definition of what Cancel Culture is - which is weaponizing a small number of individuals to put pressure on 3rd party groups, services or entities to cease their business relationship(s) with a person or entity the aforementioned individuals don't like, often using tactics to make the issue appear more widely settled than it actually is.

Then there are people who lie about what Cancel culture is. Often they are the same people who lie about what Wokeness is.

And yes you are welcome to your opinion on what it is, but many disagree. Who is correct?

[TheDemonLord]

And yes you are welcome to your opinion on what it is, but many disagree. Who is correct?

The issue is - those who disagree are getting their information from sources who at best are naive and mildly biased and at worst are out-right lying.

I mean etymologically, I could make the argument that since it is 'my side' of the 'debate' that coined the phrase, we are the ones who are in a position to define what it is. The fact that it exists as a separate word from 'Boycott' (which is generally a neutral term as both sides engage in boycotts) means that we can draw a distinction between the two.

If I were to expand my definition, I could add that it is generally used to describe actions taken in response to violations against Left-Wing Orthodoxy - but I don't think that is specifically useful.

I know what you are getting at - but this is one of those 'I've been involved in this type of discussion since the early 2000s and you'll just have to take my word for it' moments.

It's like how the Left wing will say there's no such thing as Woke when they are talking to a Conservative, then in the next breath to someone on their own side give a comprehensive definition of what Woke is.

[onearmedbandit]

You're failing to see my point though TDL, I wasn't offering a definition of what cancel culture is, nor was I saying who is wrong and who is right. I said there are people that don't agree about what it is, and you said you disagreed with my statement. So therefore are you arguing that everyone agrees with what the definition of cancel culture is?

[TheDemonLord]

You're failing to see my point though TDL, I wasn't offering a definition of what cancel culture is, nor was I saying who is wrong and who is right. I said there are people that don't agree about what it is, and you said you disagreed with my statement. So therefore are you arguing that everyone agrees with what the definition of cancel culture is?

Okay - I see your point - let me clarify then:

There are some people (on the left) who are being deliberately deceptive as to what Cancel Culture is. They lie and say it doesn't exist or they try to put in a definition that means they get to claim the right is doing it.

Unfortunately they are often the journalists and sources by which the posters on this board get their information.

So from my perspective, it's not that 'people can't agree on what cancel culture is' - which implies there's some honest difference of opinion, it's that one side is deliberately lying about it - they know what it is, because they are the ones doing it and they know that it makes them look bad.

[onearmedbandit]

Okay - I see your point - let me clarify then:

There are some people (on the left) who are being deliberately deceptive as to what Cancel Culture is. They lie and say it doesn't exist or they try to put in a definition that means they get to claim the right is doing it.

Unfortunately they are often the journalists and sources by which the posters on this board get their information.

So from my perspective, it's not that 'people can't agree on what cancel culture is' - which implies there's some honest difference of opinion, it's that one side is deliberately lying about it - they know what it is, because they are the ones doing it and they know that it makes them look bad.

Hang on, you seem to be talking in absolutes. You say 'some people (on the left) who are being deliberately being deceptive' and then turn it into 'one side is deliberately lying about it' and imply there is no room for honest difference of opinion. How can you be so sure of this?

[TheDemonLord]

Hang on, you seem to be talking in absolutes. You say 'some people (on the left) who are being deliberately being deceptive' and then turn it into 'one side is deliberately lying about it' and imply there is no room for honest difference of opinion. How can you be so sure of this?

10+ years of seeing it firsthand.

As I said, I gave a definition that is politically neutral and pretty accurate.

I'm talking in absolutes because I don't believe the other side is operating in good faith. For example - they either outright say it doesn't exist (which is a lie) or they try to change the frame of the discussion ('it's not cancel culture, it's consequence culture') or try to morph it into something it isn't so they can say that the 'right' is doing it too.

I have some degree of sympathy for those whose primary source of these terms are the same people who are engaging in one of those 3 behaviors (since they are merely trusting a dishonest person) - but yes - these days I have no tolerance for those who are lying about their actions and motivations.

It's not a sleight on you either, you can be as skeptical as you want on my claim.

[onearmedbandit]

10+ years of seeing it firsthand.

As I said, I gave a definition that is politically neutral and pretty accurate.

I'm talking in absolutes because I don't believe the other side is operating in good faith. For example - they either outright say it doesn't exist (which is a lie) or they try to change the frame of the discussion ('it's not cancel culture, it's consequence culture') or try to morph it into something it isn't so they can say that the 'right' is doing it too.

I have some degree of sympathy for those whose primary source of these terms are the same people who are engaging in one of those 3 behaviors (since they are merely trusting a dishonest person) - but yes - these days I have no tolerance for those who are lying about their actions and motivations.

It's not a sleight on you either, you can be as skeptical as you want on my claim.

Oh I don't take it as a sleight on me at all, see I've offered no opinion on what it is or isn't. I try not to talk in absolutes because I too have see what you're talking about firsthand for 10+yrs, you don't have a monopoly on that, and I firmly believe it isn't as black and white as you are suggesting. There would be many on the left of the spectrum who are not suckered in by the rantings of the extremists yet their definition of what is or isn't cancel culture would differ with yours, mine, anyone who you care to name.

I just feel outright generalisations do nothing to bridge the gulf between the two sides, rather I would suggest they simple serve to further that divide by putting people in one of two camps, when there are many more degrees of differing opinions that make us one society. And that alienates people.

This is simply my opinion.

[sugilite:Me]

My observations is both sides try to package up cancel culture as they are right and the others are wrong - shocking I know. It is two sides of the same coin at best, or the exact same turd with two different types of gift wrap.
The approach I take is how much of a shit do I give about the issue? How did the issue come about? Is it endemic of the company/organizations culture etc?

My take on the Schick advert mentioned by several was this. Schick marketing got caught up in their overestimation of having their finger on the social pulse and they made a very poor decision.
Do I think Schick marketing boffins and execs go about their day in contemplation male violence and ways to reeducate all said unruly males? Not a fucking chance.
Did they make a poor decision in a quest to shamelessly sell more products over a concept most of them don't give an actual flying fuck about? If course they did.
Did they pay for that bad mistake? Yes.
Will my changing from what I consider the best razer ever built for my face - the Shick mach 3 - make a bit of difference in the larger scheme of things? Nope.
Thus it was an easy decision for me. Stick with the Schick and let the cancel culture suck dick.

[TheDemonLord]

Oh I don't take it as a sleight on me at all, see I've offered no opinion on what it is or isn't. I try not to talk in absolutes because I too have see what you're talking about firsthand for 10+yrs, you don't have a monopoly on that, and I firmly believe it isn't as black and white as you are suggesting. There would be many on the left of the spectrum who are not suckered in by the rantings of the extremists yet their definition of what is or isn't cancel culture would differ with yours, mine, anyone who you care to name.

The problem is though - that it's not the rantings of Extremists. It's the talking heads on the news, it's the Guardian, hell - it's even mainstream politicians who deny and distort it for their team.

I just feel outright generalisations do nothing to bridge the gulf between the two sides, rather I would suggest they simple serve to further that divide by putting people in one of two camps, when there are many more degrees of differing opinions that make us one society. And that alienates people.

This is simply my opinion.

And as you know, even when I'm disagreeing with you (and others) I do appreciate the input. Getting back to the Black and white and building bridges.

My issue is that at the ultimate conclusion there is one inevitability: Western liberal capitalist democracies cannot co-exist with Marxism. In the same way that Christianity cannot co-exist with Satanism.

I cannot build a bridge to someone who fundamentally wants to tear down everything that I hold dear. Does everyone want to do that? No, but by accepting the framing, the words and the presuppositions of the Academics, journalists etc. who have been university educated into believing these things - they are practically not much better. To use the phrase 'Useful idiots'.

Here is my question to you then: How would you (not me) build a bridge to a Marxist?

[TheDemonLord]

My observations is both sides try to package up cancel culture as they are right and the others are wrong - shocking I know. It is two sides of the same coin at best, or the exact same turd with two different types of gift wrap.
The approach I take is how much of a shit do I give about the issue? How did the issue come about? Is it endemic of the company/organizations culture etc?

So - the right definitely do Boycott - no one denies that, what I don't see is the attacking of 3rd parties. Case in point, imagine a noted Marxist was coming to NZ to give a speech - would the Right Wing be getting petitions to the immigration minister to block their visit as we saw with Posie Parker?

I could perhaps accept that the level of organization (not to mention biases in social media - thanks Elon and Matt Thaibbi for confirming) means the right is unable to do it.

My take on the Schick advert mentioned by several was this. Schick marketing got caught up in their overestimation of having their finger on the social pulse and they made a very poor decision.
Do I think Schick marketing boffins and execs go about their day in contemplation male violence and ways to reeducate all said unruly males? Not a fucking chance.
Did they make a poor decision in a quest to shamelessly sell more products over a concept most of them don't give an actual flying fuck about? If course they did.
Did they pay for that bad mistake? Yes.
Will my changing from what I consider the best razer ever built for my face - the Shick mach 3 - make a bit of difference in the larger scheme of things? Nope.
Thus it was an easy decision for me. Stick with the Schick and let the cancel culture suck dick.

Gillette

There's a key distinction in your assessment (which for the most-part I agree with) - e.g. I agree The wider executive management team don't give a flying fuck about the issues and would do an advert on top of a rotting corpse if they thought it would boost sales.

The issue is that there is a small number of people who are in positions like: HR, Marketing and other Creative elements, who went to university and did either BS degrees or whose field of study has woke indoctrination in it - they absolutely do spend their day contemplating issues like male violence, the patriarchy etc. - and then they form a Cabal of like-mindedness.

So imagine you are Mr CEO at Gillette, your Marketing team presents you the new advert and you think 'This doesn't look right' - so you turn to say the head of HR who says 'Yes, absolutely this is what all the cool kids are into' - then you call up say a marketing firm who you've dealt with in the past and they tell you it's wonderful and it really hits a cultural zeitgeist and could be a culturally defining advert blah blah blah - then they show you a small number of highly influential social media personalities to demonstrate how 'popular' it is/will be.

You, as a good leader, have consulted with your team of experts (who all believe the same thing because they were all indoctrinated at Uni to believe it), you otherwise trust your team of experts - so you greenlit the advert and then BAM! Reality gives you a quick and palpable tap on the nose.

As an aside as well - I want to draw a difference here - I don't begrudge you or think you are a bad person for continuing to financially support a company I choose not to.

That's the difference between what the Right Wing does and the Left Wing.