Treaty of Waitangi

[idb]

The issue wasn't who got here first , it was about defeating and decimating them - totally different things.

Why is it we keep seeing people trying to say this didn't happen and trying to sweep it under the carpet? Isn't this what Maori have been complaining about?

Wellllllllllllll....if they weren't here to begin with, how could they have been defeated and decimated?

[yod]

Actually, you were the one to float that hypothesis, nobody else. So no excuse offered or needed.

ok fine, take it as a question then

do you think it's a reasonable defence?

someone else committed murder so that means I am too.....


good luck with that one

[HTFU]

mathematics is the language of the universe and the only universal one.

And what, you can speak it? I got over 80% in school C maths and science and sat in 1 hour of Maths relief last week thinking what the fuck and why (class looked very similar to the one I sat in in 1993).

science is just a method of learning, and maths simply it’s language. Both are the cornerstones of our civilisation

Thats what my maths and science colleagues and like minded people use to justify their existence in a secondary education system. Preach that shit at Tertiary level where those that are inspired by the cosmos can make that step, ramming it down teenagers throats and then wondering why they are disengaging from it all is plain crazy. We all know its important stuff, but to whom and when we learn its complexities is the big educational issue that we have plain and simply got wrong (for the last 100 years). Sure it works for a few of our schools - The St Peters etc of this world - and why ? because they have the support of families that are not stuck in a cycle of disillusionment passed on from generation to generation.

Oh and try convincing our kids that its important 5th period on a Friday. No thanks I will stick to running around with a ball or teaching them about skin care. Must explain why I can stick to my Health curriculum this last week of term and most maths and science classes are watching spiderman and other videos this week.

The dumbing down of our education system is possibly the biggest threat to our civilisation there has ever been.

It hasn't fucken changed in 400 years, and if you are referring to NCEA thats only been in the last 5. I know plenty of my South Auckland mates 20 years ago that found certain parts of secondary education irrelevant and if we had a poll here I would be highly surprised to find KB people to be any different. Its these irrelevant parts of our school system that create the anti school/learning culture that has always been there but is growing out of control in New Zealand. Some of us are trying our damnedest to change that.

I also think that the biggest factor in Maori success or the lack of it, is their failure in the education system. However, I am unsure as to whether the problem lies with Maori or with the system.

I guess this is why I started down the education argument and away from the treaty as the root of all evil. I for one want to reduce the number of Maori boys who end up in prison, Maori girls who smoke and have children to young bla bla bla. All the stuff that European New Zealanders use as an excuse to say useless nohoper Maarees. Trouble is its not just them going down this path, and I am pretty sure I know why. Anyway you guys can argue how important certain subjects are to an education system that clearly has not worked, ever ( remember scaling, there is a reason they had to do that, we all failed) - but try teaching those important subject, make it hum, get the kids engaged and on board for the learning ride of a life time all for $44000 a year. Go on I dare you.

[Bass]

And what, you can speak it?

Well actually, yes I can and I do every day. But then I earn my living as an engineer




I guess this is why I started down the education argument and away from the treaty as the root of all evil. I for one want to reduce the number of Maori boys who end up in prison, Maori girls who smoke and have children to young bla bla bla. All the stuff that European New Zealanders use as an excuse to say useless nohoper Maarees. Trouble is its not just them going down this path, and I am pretty sure I know why. Anyway you guys can argue how important certain subjects are to an education system that clearly has not worked, ever ( remember scaling, there is a reason they had to do that, we all failed) - but try teaching those important subject, make it hum, get the kids engaged and on board for the learning ride of a life time all for $44000 a year. Go on I dare you.

I suspect that we disagree about less than we agree upon.
However, I also suspect that we will never agree on some things.
I will however, add that the four most competent, most inspiring teachers that I encountered in my entire scholastic career were all maths or science teachers. Moreover, they could inspire students from any ethnic background.
Could I do that? No, not a chance so I reject your dare.

I also look back at the society that I grew up in and it functioned much better than the one I live in today. There was much, much less of all the nasty stuff. Basically people had respect for one another and just got on with it.
So the education system back then must have had something that it lacks now.
I believe that respect was a key element.

[PirateJafa]

Speaking as a New Zealander, I have always felt that sure, the Europeans committed *some* injustices. But at the same time, in return the Maori received a immediate umpteen-thousand-year technological upgrade. I mean, hell they were still beating each other to death with spears and stones and eating each other when the Europeans arrived.

Doesn't that count for something?

Personally I think that the Pakeha are taking it up the arse now, and have been for a loooong time. All the worthwhile claims would have been settled long since. It's only the cashcows that are still being milked now.

[Ocean1]

I suspect that we disagree about less than we agree upon.
However, I also suspect that we will never agree on some things.
I will however, add that the four most competent, most inspiring teachers that I encountered in my entire scholastic career were all maths or science teachers. Moreover, they could inspire students from any ethnic background.
Could I do that? No, not a chance so I reject your dare.

I also look back at the society that I grew up in and it functioned much better than the one I live in today. There was much, much less of all the nasty stuff. Basically people had respect for one another and just got on with it.
So the education system back then must have had something that it lacks now.
I believe that respect was a key element.

Dude you saved me the trouble...

Don't think anyone doubts that it's difficult to inspire and lead today’s kids. Don't think that's the education system's fault either. But, (waiting for that weren't we), just because a thing is difficult doesn't usually mean there's justification to avoid doing it.

As I inferred earlier, it's a cultural attitude, who the fuck wants to be a chemist, engineer, biologist etc etc when the glitterati look down their noses at such. We got a special name for dem eh…Nerds. We’d rather be sports/rock/fashion stars. And if you think teachers, (even the Nerdish) are hard done by in terms of remuneration then consider that their pay is based on that which similar qualifications might gain them in the real world… good but hardly stellar.

Nor do I believe it’s about streaming, a facility with science and maths subjects does not require a high IQ, just a particular way of thinking and discipline. Fuck, there’s that D word again, seems to feature a fair bit when it comes to discussing failure huh? Maori or otherwise, change the way we perceive tech professionals of we’re all in trouble in a few years.

[Toaster]

Wellllllllllllll....if they weren't here to begin with, how could they have been defeated and decimated?

Just for info Decimation came from Roman times. The punishment for failure in battle was to line up the defeated troops and have every tenth soldier killed by the sword. Hence 'deci' being ten.

I suggest a similar approach is needed here for criminals and wet-blanket politically-correct minority-loving benefits and hand-outs for losers brigade.

Would save the hard working middle-class taxpayer billions and then we could pay off our mortgages!!

[The Pastor]

Universities are doing well keeping the gravy trail alive and well. All they need is a constant string of simpletons and it's easy.

THATS MAGUA FOR YOU

What I said is far from what we are taught. We had no specific lectures on the treaty, just the one on SILNA (south island landless natives act) and the subsequent claim to the Waitangi Tribunal as a part of challenges to environmental management.

Gravy trail indeed.

RACISM AND POVERTY EXSITED WELL BEFORE THE WHITE PEOPLE SHOWED UP.

IT IS NOT RELEVANT TODAY, YES PEOPLE WERE "WRONGED" BUT THE SOONER THE TREATY IS ABOLISHED AND WE TREAT EVERYONE EQUAL THE BETTER. DEM NIGGAS AINT GOT NO PURE BLOOD IN DEM ANYWAYS. FO REAL.

[Ocean1]

Just for info Decimation came from Roman times. The punishment for failure in battle was to line up the defeated troops and have every tenth soldier killed by the sword. Hence 'deci' being ten.

I suggest a similar approach is needed here for criminals and wet-blanket politically-correct minority-loving benefits and hand-outs for losers brigade.

Would save the hard working middle-class taxpayer billions and then we could pay off our mortgages!!

Art the soul of restraint dude, the very font of leniency. Don’t forget the average Legate would have had to remove his boots to count beyond ten. When culling those less savoury than failed soldiers one in ten might represent much the same function as an aperitif, a mere prelude.

[terbang]

I also look back at the society that I grew up in and it functioned much better than the one I live in today. There was much, much less of all the nasty stuff. Basically people had respect for one another and just got on with it.
So the education system back then must have had something that it lacks now.
I believe that respect was a key element.

I believe that we we have an 'angrier' society now and it seems to be getting even grumpier. A lack of respect for others probably comes hand in hand with lack of self respect and self discipline. Therefore we could be dumbing down as well.

As a New Zealander I must acknowledge that there were some serious rip offs in our history that didn't help Maori at all. I am certainly not responsible for the actions of my forebears and cannot turn back the clock. However it would also be fair to say that I may have reaped the benefits of my forebears actions (good or bad ) to an advantage over the descendants of those who were ripped off. It is only reasonable to expect that us, kiwi's who like to promote the ideal of a fair deal, can identify and sort out the real rip offs of the past. Sounds normal to me except I struggle with the question of, when is the cut off point between undoing the past and letting it go and just getting over it. 60 odd years after WW2 we are over the Nazis, as are Germans. There has to be a time to say 'when'.
The Treaty is an old document that was fairly hastily drawn up and I reckon it has done it's dash. Its now obsolete in the 21st century and appears to have become a painful and expensive exercise in semantics. It now gets commonly used as a guilt prodding gravy train, rather than an agreement. This seems to be creating a greater void between the different peoples rather than decreasing it, which I suspect was the original intent of the treaty... Time to put a match to it and start again I'd say. This will mean give and take on both sides of the fence (both Maori and Non Maori). Now is that possible?

[ManDownUnder]

Time to put a match to it and start again I'd say. This will mean give and take on both sides of the fence (both Maori and Non Maori). Now is that possible?

Yes - create a constitution - a superior document which recognises the Treaty, but puts it in it's place... 160 years ago.

A constitution is a living document, subject to amendments and able to take into account growth without fanciful notions on how to interpret it (i.e. the clause in the Treaty that somehow gives ownership or stewardship of the air above the land to Maori... being liberally translated to be Ownership of the radio frequencies)

I can see how they got there, but if that's what was mean then radio waves should have been specifically mentioned in the original document... y'know - 40 years before they were discovered.

[Bass]

I believe that we we have an 'angrier' society now and it seems to be getting even grumpier. A lack of respect for others probably comes hand in hand with lack of self respect and self discipline. Therefore we could be dumbing down as well.

As a New Zealander I must acknowledge that there were some serious rip offs in our history that didn't help Maori at all. I am certainly not responsible for the actions of my forebears and cannot turn back the clock. However it would also be fair to say that I may have reaped the benefits of my forebears actions (good or bad ) to an advantage over the descendants of those who were ripped off. It is only reasonable to expect that us, kiwi's who like to promote the ideal of a fair deal, can identify and sort out the real rip offs of the past. Sounds normal to me except I struggle with the question of, when is the cut off point between undoing the past and letting it go and just getting over it. 60 odd years after WW2 we are over the Nazis, as are Germans. There has to be a time to say 'when'.
The Treaty is an old document that was fairly hastily drawn up and I reckon it has done it's dash. Its now obsolete in the 21st century and appears to have become a painful and expensive exercise in semantics. It now gets commonly used as a guilt prodding gravy train, rather than an agreement. This seems to be creating a greater void between the different peoples rather than decreasing it, which I suspect was the original intent of the treaty... Time to put a match to it and start again I'd say. This will mean give and take on both sides of the fence (both Maori and Non Maori). Now is that possible?

I'm not totally in agreement with you here but I'll go along with most of it.

I think that the way in which our society has changed most in the last 40 years and which is also relevant to this thread, is in the field of people's rights.
It seems to me that a large and growing segment of our population knows all about their rights and how to claim them.
It also seems to me that what is pretty much always forgotten is that no-one has any rights at all unless someone else takes responsibility. Further, that those of us who take responsibility and make it possible for people to have rights to claim, are getting trampled underfoot in the rush.

[COP_B8]

Maori Business and Commercial Law? What a fucken joke.

This country makes me sick.

Mind explaining........

[COP_B8]

I wonder if Cop B8 is going to use any of this material spoken by "real" NZers in his research paper?

Yes I will be, I too am also a "real" New Zealander although am unsure what you were aluding too there.

I have similar opinions to alot of the comments on here, however feel the only way too effect any change is to actually study and learn about everything from both sides of the coin, I am one of only a handful of non-maori in the Maori Business programme and continually challenge some of the one sided teaching that goes on.

[MSTRS:Me]

Mind explaining........

You don't know Finn very well, do you? Besides, what's to explain? Business is business, just as is Commercial Law....what the fuck has ethnicity got to do with it?
Unless you want to use traditional Maori designs (say) and need to get around the minefield of intellectual property rights.