Police shoot and kill another person

[Krusti]

My question is not really about this case alone... Im hoping someone can answer it for me...

Fair enough, when a cop feels they are under pressure, shoot! But 4 bullets? Hmmm excessive IMO.

The other night we were watching one of these cop programmes and police were empying their guns on people. I asked my partner why this happens, he says you need to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat... surely one or two bullets would do that? Or am I being naive again?

A couple of points..... you will find that almost all people faced with a thread and decide to fire will automaticly keep pulling the trigger more than once. It is a strange feeling looking down the barrel of a gun deciding if you should shoot or not.

I was taught that if an offender was running at you from 12m away and a shot was fired at centre mass then there was only about a 50% or so chance that a 38 revolver shot would drop him prior to reaching you but a rifle had about a 90% plus chance.

All I will say is that I am glad I was not the officer having to make the decision. Imagine, you have pulled a gun, he is running at you, you have a split second to decide......tough call.

[Edbear]

Don't be a bunch of pussies. Good job. I wish this happened more often.

What makes me really laugh is the following...

"Police District Commander Sandra Manderson said a homicide investigation and a separate Police Complaints Authority inquiry had started."

What? Who complained? Bloody joke. Okay, perhaps a little investigation may be in order but instead we now get a cop(s) who should get a medal has to spend the next 4 years in court.

And this little bute...

"Police Kaumatua Reverend Maurice Gray had been called in to ensure that the cultural process of tapu lifting was done correctly and that the scene was rendered neutral when police work was completed."

More special treatment. The local witch doctor does a song and dance. If they have magic powers, why didn't his farnow lift the "evil spirit" from the prick while he was still alive?

"You must spread..."

[Macktheknife]

I was taught that if an offender was running at you from 12m away and a shot was fired at centre mass then there was only about a 50% or so chance that a 38 revolver shot would drop him prior to reaching you but a rifle had about a 90% plus chance.

All I will say is that I am glad I was not the officer having to make the decision. Imagine, you have pulled a gun, he is running at you, you have a split second to decide......tough call.

Sorry Krusti, not a tough call for me at all. Have been in these situations and found extraordinary clarity comes fast, you do what you need to do and leave all recriminations behind at that point.
I am sick of all the bullshit that comes out when these idiots commit suicide by police. People who hardly know one end of a gun from the other suddenly think it is reasonable to expect a cop who has 1-2 qualifying shoots per year at targets, to be able to 'shoot to wound/incapacitate' under extreme pressure and life threatening circumstances, and do it with just one shot.
Oh and by the way officer, if you screw it up and somehow manage to live through the experience, you will still be told you were wrong and get crucified in the media.

I have personally seen an offender, after taking 3 rounds to various parts of his body still running towards an officer, screaming "I'm gonna kill you" with a weapon in his hand.
It took another 3 rounds to put the guy down and he still didn't die.

All I am saying is, most people have no idea how difficult it is to shoot someone, never mind someone who is intent on killing you in the very near future. To do this and still have some sense of control and awareness is unusual, to do this and be a perfect shot, is bloody near impossible.

As far as I am concerned, the cop did the right thing, and deserves all the help and support I know he probably won't get.

[scumdog]

As a taxpayer, Im putting my hand up to say that I wouldnt mind the extra expense of the extra rounds (Glock is what, nine? so he had five spare: he should get an efficiency medal or something.)

Sorry dude, - wrong!

SEVENTEEN bullets in a Glock 17 mag.

But hey, the idea is once you start cranking on the trigger you keep doing so until the oxygen thief 'complies' and ceases to be a threat.

We have no limit on how many shots we can sail into threat.

[Delerium]

I think that part of the argument here is to do with the public ignrance of firearms. I dont mean any disrepect to anybody, a firearms user or not but some things need to be made clear. As a user of firearms since I was 10 or 11 and now part a of a govt department that uses them here is a few points to ponder.

With handguns the barrel is extermely short... like inches. this means that a slight hand movement results in a large sight picture change. the result of this is bullets scattered over a wide area. Or a large group as we like to say. The short barrel also results in less time to effectively stabilise a bullet, again negatively affecting accuracy.

The result is that if your shooting much more than 30 or so meters with a handgun, you may as well throw it at them (personal opionion).

When pumped full of adrenalin your under stress and your hands will be shaking. The double tap method is standard. it is used in order to help ensure that your target goes down and is no longer a threat.

To those that say shoot him in the head or the leg, have you ever fired a weapon or pistol before? your dreaming. In order to simulate the stress of these situations, certain organisations make the troops sprint 200 meters before doing a 'snap' (releasing x amount of rounds within a set time period) shoot. Doing this with a rifle is hard enough, try doing it with a pistol and you will start to appreciate how difficult it gets.

This is part of the reason you go for centre of mass. It is the largest target that will stop the threat. Remember your target wont just stand there while you get your sight picutre sorted out. combine all these factors and it actually isnt that easy.

Back to the doubble tap, as well as helping ensure that your target goes down, by increasing the amount of rounds in the air that are AIMED, it helps to have your rounds connect. (studies have shown that more than 2-3 round bursts and the accuracy goes out the window, hence 3 round burst features on weapons rather than fully automatic)

Give it a try if you know somebody with a firearms license. Sprint 200 meters, then try and put 4 or 5 rounds on target within say 10 seconds and have a look at the result.

and why the outcry about the guy ONLY having a hammer. Would you let me belt you around the head with one as hard as I could? didnt think so, you would likely end up dead.

[SPman]

An out of control person with a hammer can kill or maim a person just as easily as someone with a pistol. If I had a pistol and some maniac was coming at me swinging an Estwing (we're talking HAMMERS, here), I'd use it, no question! At least 4 rounds! (at the Whangaparoa 40m range, most people could barely effectively hit the target under quiet, controlled conditions, let alone in an adrenaline charged fracas)

Sad fact of the matter is, outside of a text book or discussion group, there is no regular soft option, available 100% of the time to people involved in incidents like this.
How many events of a similar nature are dealt with every week, without a serious or fatal outcome? - probably more than you'd like to admit - just another day to day problem for your real copper to handle. It's just when it goes horribly wrong that the media screams it from the rooftops and people try to make political capital out of it.

Police shootings happen so rarely here, that it's headline news, but, at least it's not an every day event, like so many other countries around the world!
Whatever the rights and wrongs about this particular case, at least you can be thankful for that.

[Goblin]

As far as I am concerned, the cop did the right thing, and deserves all the help and support I know he probably won't get.

Too bloody right! One less oxygen thief!

[Littleman]

Soo... ummm... how 'bout those Warriors?

[Tank]

Soo... ummm... how 'bout those Warriors?

They were not shot - they choked.

[Reckless]

The Taser's trial period is over, Police will only get it back if it's approved, Kinda ironic that when the Police had it, people said Police didn't need it, now it's gone,
people are asking, why didn't they use it ??

Yep the same bleeding hearts that'll try and crusify this guy! The Tails wagging the dog I think!

Well, it looks like we'll all get a say in how we'd like the cops to do their jobs:

And I hope we''ll all turn up to make it for him in the split second he has to make that decision. We can't do this of coarse, so we should all shut up and keep well out of it as we weren't there!!!

Frankly I don't give a fuck about facts that come out. NZ police don't bloody shoot people for the sake of it. END OF STORY!!

And there has been no mention throughout this thread of the fact that this guy is human to. Hows he sleeping at night after the shooting, hows he coping with all the shit being/about to be thrown about, how his family reacting to all this public discussion. The mans a fucking hero just for turning up to the job every day!!

My opinion and I'm sticking to it!!

[Usarka]

Well bugger me if the herald hasn't changed the article and now say

"The 37-year-old shot by police had threatened officers and was carrying a hammer which he had used to smash up a flat and a car in Stanmore Rd, Christchurch, police said today"

and all you negative buggers say you cant change things! (no one in particular)

[peasea]

Too early to pass comment, although I could say something cynical like "there'll be an inquiry, the cops will be cleared of any wrongdoing etc etc" but I won't.

The police are our friends and only act to serve and protect us, often protecting us from ourselves and if I were lost I'd still ask a policeman for directions.

(I'm sure there are plenty on kb who would love to tell me where to go, especially if I made cynical remarks.)

There'll be no sarcasm from this quarter either.

[Skyryder]

The paper currently says:

Manderson said the police officer who shot the man felt his life was "under serious threat". Manderson said the man was threatening serious harm to the police officer.


If a guy is coming at you with a hammer stating that he is going to do you serious harm I would call that life threatening.

Yes fair call, but Manderson has also said that other weapons may have been involved. Now he may have had an arsanal in his garage but unless he was armed with additional weapons Manderson's comment about 'other weapons' is irrellevent. It was her comment on this that caught my attention that not all is kosher here.

There has been no information that the offender was rushing or about to rush the officer. In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Skyryder

[Dilligaf]

To those that say shoot him in the head or the leg, have you ever fired a weapon or pistol before? your dreaming. In order to simulate the stress of these situations, certain organisations make the troops sprint 200 meters before doing a 'snap' (releasing x amount of rounds within a set time period) shoot. Doing this with a rifle is hard enough, try doing it with a pistol and you will start to appreciate how difficult it gets.

.

Bugger that! Why shoot him in the leg - then we'd have to pay for invalid's benefit for the rest of his life.

[Finn]

In fact a witness has come forward and stated the offender had his arms at his side at the time of the shooting.

Another witness has come forward and said that he saw the officer blow on the end of the barrel after the shooting.

Another said that after checking for a pulse, they found one so proceeded to hold their hand over his mouth.

One even saw an officer urinating on the deceased.

The body is still there today and it is said that after fornesics have finished playing poker in the tent, they'll let the local dogs have a feed.

This is all true. The public and media never fabricate stuff.