Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[davereid]

Perhaps I'm old fashioned, or had good ethics taught to me by my parents, but, Idle, there is only ONE way to pull a rabbit out of a hat.... you have to put one in it first

It means that you can't just make the minimum adult wage $15 and expect it to work. If its that easy, why not make it $30 or $60 ?

Mr. Mugabe has found that you can't just halve prices to stop inflation.

There is only one way to be better off. And its to be more productive.

All labour has done is screw up small business and wallow in self-satisfaction.

[idleidolidyll]

Were you here for the last lot of sellouts, started by an extreme right wing Labour government, then carried on by the Nats - strip down cut price giveaways to their mates, who then asset stripped them and sold on the husks!
1000 million dollar handouts to companies that fucked up because they were greedy and incompetent (BNZ).
Private companies are one thing - they will be bought and sold as and when, I have no worry with that, but, major public assets and infrastructure, should not be sold of to a "profit driven and to hell with the public" company that couldn't care less about anything except the bottom line.
A country is a living organism, not a pile of figures on a ledger sheet. It is infinite shades of grey, not black and white. Just as you get rot and disease from too much "leftie greeny" influence, so you get raging infectious sores, from too much rampant right wing robotism!
Too much on one side or the other, it all turns to a big pile of poo. It is possible to balance both sides of the equation, not that many governments achieve it, if any, but I reckon the current Labour government has done it better than a National government under Keys and his cronies would do.

Damn straight!

[idleidolidyll]

And he continues to emotively pour forth his expletives from what he considers the moral high ground, from his convenient position of semi anonymity.

what a pile of bullshit Robert; I've said many times who I am and there's a photo of me on my profile page. I've stated where I've worked and what I've done.

If you're gonna post bullshit please try to make it intelligent bullshit

as for emotive posts, many of my posts have references and are research based. On the other hand, most of your posts are emotive crap.

[idleidolidyll]

Because the world actually DOESNT owe you a living! Now, whilst the sewers of the world pour forth their filth I must continue working, millions on welfare depend on me.

yawn, more right wing cliched propaganda: get some new material, your hackneyed old crap is boring.

why the fuck SHOULD anyone be tied into a capitalist system that they don't support or have faith in? .............because whitey says so and he holds all the power..........

[BIGBOSSMAN]

WRONG. Couldn't be more wrong, utterly incorrect. As wrong as wrong could concevably be, ....

Hmmm, I don't think so...

[idleidolidyll]

I
You’re right, a country is a living organism, culturally and socially, that doesn’t mean you can ignore it’s economic health. If socialists see capitalists as heartless it’s possibly because they recognise that there’s a limit to the cultural and social problems able to be addressed commercially.

Oh dear, the generalisations based on hearsay and propaganda flow again. What socialsit government in NZ has ever ignored the economy? None, that's just utter nonsense.
No, socialists see SOME capitalists as heartless because they are heartless. They care nothing for humanity beyond themselves, or if they're lucky, themselves and their immediate family and fellow capitalists.

"A true balanced opposite of socialism in your equation would have every social resource put at the disposal of those who make the economy successful. That’s not capitalism, that’s a pre-industrial European “ideal”."

Yes it is, that is in fact the very definition of capitalism: the means of production controlled exclusively by the capitalists (the few with the most money). It isn't outdated at all and we have only to look to the USA to see that it is currently practiced and has even been enshrined in legislation giving big corporates more power than all the electorte combined.

Modern capitalists genuinely do represent the only workable middle ground, they simply want to be left with enough of the resources they’ve generated to remain viable.

No, capitalists represent capitalists, that's the definition of one. The middle ground is represented by representative democracy, an institution that capitalism only works with when it has no choice. If available, it will happily choose dictatorships and despost who are more easily corrupted to force through its ultimately destructive policies.

Socialists, by comparison seem to have no problem crippling the economy in order to support those who fail to contribute anything to it, a deathwish made real.

More total bullshit as easily evidenced by the fact that the current government has grown business and at the same time provided more aid and assistance to those in need or without opportunity. Try to be a little more credible, the economy is in better health than it has been for fucking years and that's happened under a three term left centre government.

I do get sick of the over-the-top corporate phobia, commercial interests are normally very transparent (rubbish, they are normally secretive and only transparent when forced to be so), they need to make money to survive. So what? That’s exactly the same behaviour seen in those who take advantage of a social support system they contributed nothing to.

No, it's quite different behaviour because those corporates abuse democracy by circumventing government policy to get their way. They are far more powerful than people and governments role should always be to protect citizens from the abuse of capitalists because that's their fallback position.


It’s not difficult to write a contract that deals with any short-changing of services. If a supplier takes advantage of a poorly written service contract I’d find fault with the idiot that wrote it, the same fault I see in the idiocy that is our completely unsustainable social policy.

No, it's not difficult. However, when the power is in the hands of the corporate, the contract is written by them and the worker can take it or fuck off. That's the damage the Employment Contracts Act did.

I doubt National will sell off any significant infrastructure, anything left in the public domain is so run down as to be worthless. Time, perhaps to realise that the piggy bank is empty. The contents have gone not to feed corporate greed, or to maintain the machinery required to re-fill it, but to feed a blind ideology that’s main weapon is individual greed. In the meantime our infrastructure has deteriorated from world class to third world joke, and our ability to rebuild it is threatened most by the current administration.

National will privatise social policy and those providing it will be or be bought by foreign corporations. That will mean that we will pay higher costs and our taxes will go directly to supporting foreign elites and capitalists who have no stake in our country other than profits. Society will suffer as a result.
THAT is how National will sell us out this time around: by cutting taxes so much we won't have any independent social policy.

[idleidolidyll]

No reason at all - just as long as you get a job.

And hopefully persuade those you know and love to get a job if they don't already have one and should.

"get a job"

why? what's wrong with living off the land?

[idleidolidyll]

It means that you can't just make the minimum adult wage $15 and expect it to work. If its that easy, why not make it $30 or $60 ?

why tell me? i've never said you could.
however, without a minimum wage we'd be back to serfdom in no time or working for tips because our employers could take advantage of us and profit from us without a reasonable exchange.

Mr. Mugabe has found that you can't just halve prices to stop inflation.

yawn

There is only one way to be better off. And its to be more productive.

One way? "better off"?
Think deeper; ANOTHER way would be to invest in creation of high tech industry or develop our own home grown technology or information economy.
as for better off, your idea of better off seems pretty limited to me. in my world, better off means happier and more content. That doesn't necessarily mean work harder, longer or at all.

All labour has done is screw up small business and wallow in self-satisfaction.

actually National screwed small business even more, they sold small business out to big business and they intend to continue pandering to the BRT and foreign interests. Under Labour it has grown by about 9%. If you really think National will make it all better I'm happy for them to get in so I can laugh at you in a few years time when they fuck it all up again.

[idleidolidyll]

what has national actually offered for policy besides "we'll do the same as labour except we'll cut taxes too"?

that's truly wish and a prayer nonsense and if you are that easily taken in by...........well by nothing, you DESERVE national to fuck you over.

[davereid]

Well, the increases in the minimum adult wage haven't helped my employees. I layed them off and bought a pick-and place machine. Problem solved, its more productive, doesn't whine, go on strike, call in sick or steal stock. Or vote.

Your "Think deeper; ANOTHER way would be to invest in creation of high tech industry or develop our own home grown technology or information economy." idea assumes that we have some natural skill or ability in that area. Sorry, we don't. We are no better at software than pakistanis. We are no better at stuffing PCBs than the chinese. Like most nations, we have some very good engineers, and we make some great products, but labours "picking winners" has been a dismal failure.

[Winston001]

.........idea assumes that we have some natural skill or ability in that area. Sorry, we don't. We are no better at software than pakistanis. We are no better at stuffing PCBs than the chinese. Like most nations, we have some very good engineers, and we make some great products, but labours "picking winners" has been a dismal failure.

Yep. The "knowledge economy" just hasn't happened. Kids show little interest in science, engineering and technology and our politicians aren't leading them in those directions. Frankly I cannot understand why.

The tiger economies of Asia are far better at tech than us. The quality and work ethic puts Kiwis to shame. We are good at innovation but there simply isn't enough of it.

Like it or not, NZ is a romantic green South Pacific paradise for the rest of the world but we have very little that they need. So the "clean green" brand is all we have going for us as a sales image and we'd better be careful with that.

[Robert Taylor]

yawn, more right wing cliched propaganda: get some new material, your hackneyed old crap is boring.

why the fuck SHOULD anyone be tied into a capitalist system that they don't support or have faith in? .............because whitey says so and he holds all the power..........

''Us and them, us and them, us and them, us and them. The peoples flag is brightest red'' Man, the socialist comics you read are fully indoctrinating. Either that or you are smoking something really powerful.

[SPman]

I doubt National will sell off any significant infrastructure, anything left in the public domain is so run down as to be worthless. Bullshit!
Time, perhaps to realise that the piggy bank is empty. The contents have gone not to feed corporate greed, or to maintain the machinery required to re-fill it, but to feed a blind ideology that’s main weapon is individual greed. The same ideology that drives corporate business! In the meantime our infrastructure has deteriorated from world class to third world joke, Have you been in the "third world" lately? - compared to most, our infrastructure is not a joke, by any means.and our ability to rebuild it is threatened most by the current administration.You mean rebuild it, but in the image of what? The USA? Great Britain?

Ah...New Zealanders doing what they do best - slagging of their own country whilst bleating the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and wishing someone will do something about it - just not themselves, just like all the other woolly inhabitants!

[Robert Taylor]

what has national actually offered for policy besides "we'll do the same as labour except we'll cut taxes too"?

that's truly wish and a prayer nonsense and if you are that easily taken in by...........well by nothing, you DESERVE national to fuck you over.

The problem is your comrades in left field have so suceeded in indoctrinating great swathes of the population with Socialist expectant BS. National would become unelectable were it to preach what really needs to be done.

Indoctrination starts early. My youngest daughter chose Margaret Thatcher as her subject when required to do a project on influential women. The teacher actually made scathing comments not about the quality of the essay project but about the chosen subject matter. Okay, I prompted / suggested Maggie but the point is schools are by and large NOT apoloitical. And I see that commo Maharey is going to be spreading his left wing dogma through Massey University soon.

We probably need 10 years of undemocratic Government in NZ ( not unlike we have now ) to reset the goalposts and get some work ethic and discipline back into this country.

[Robert Taylor]

what has national actually offered for policy besides "we'll do the same as labour except we'll cut taxes too"?

that's truly wish and a prayer nonsense and if you are that easily taken in by...........well by nothing, you DESERVE national to fuck you over.

You know, I have some socialist friends just as fortrightly righteous and one eyed as your offerings. A common denominator is that they are just as liberal with the expletives. Is there research material supporting my observation?

Dont get me wrong, I am sure you are quite a nice guy behind all the left field bravado!