650 pro twins...

[Robert Taylor]

Sounds about write Rob RE costs of the equipment- I do fully agree with you on the learning curve involved in setting up suspension, BUT, ( Hope Some one else you know is not reading this) The whole idea ( Or so I believed) when the Pro Twins class idea came up, was as an introductory class for young riders

Yes, the standard sus on these bikes is not any thing to write home about, but the wheels do keep turning, if you do not crash them. AND WE ALL DRIVE IN THE RAIN ON OUR STANDARD CAR TYRES AND BIKE TYRES AND GET BY. Maybe, we can actually learn more?

SO, it is possible for the young riders (ie, as I thought, THE INTRODUCTORY CLASS) to actually get out there racing modern 4 Stroke bikes, and cutting there teeth for the move up to the 600 class, where the full Suspension options are available.

2K suspension
750 FAIRINGS
300 FAIRING BRACKETS
1000+ FULL RACE PIPE
350 MIN AFT MK FOOT PEGS


And I,ve just built a cheap one, based on todays rules?

Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you get to 600 or production superbike level almost all of the work done at the track is about tyres and suspension settings, in order to find lap times. Thats why I think its important to learn suspension set up skills BEFORE you get to that level i.e on bikes with a much less intimidating level of power that will be more forgiving if you get the settings wrong.

Perhaps that is why 125 riders have done so well when they have moved up, because they have had some adjustments to play with, and in their own way 125 setup is critical.

Get the setup wrong on especially a Superbike and it can bite you, so to reinforce my point, suspension set up skills must be commenced in junior classes....

[Robert Taylor]

Get the youngsters onto dirt bikes. People that did alot of dirtbike riding when they where young all seem to have an edge over ones that didn't.

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?




If I was to fit a 190 section Superbike tyre to my 4 1/5 inch SV rim which according to some tyre manufacturers is too narrow for a 160 section should I be allowed to race as this and potentually put other racers at risk with this unrecommended combination?.

Plenty of standard unmodified SVs do trackdays and surprisingly they crash or run off the track alot less than learners on bigger bikes.

I'm not trying to adopt a third world mentality. If the ProTwin class cost 1/2 what it does today to compete in it would become viable for alot more younger people who may otherwise go no further than Streetstock.

I really don't see it as a class for X New Zealand champions but a great class for riders without rich daddys or plenty of dispossable income to have a fair crack at racing and being competitive.

If anyone considers the class to budget they can always get a Supersport bike like others have done but most of them don't last long as theres too many expense crash repair bills.

Young guy starting out has a huge amount of expenses. Keep Protwin as cheap as possible and if someone wants to spend megabucks they can race in F3 or Supersport if they think they can meet the standard and not take out other riders.

If a rider makes a modest outlay to get an SV on the track and decides racing isn't for them then a complete ready to race package becomes available for someone else.

If there is a safety issue with SVs without emulators and aftermarket shocks is it not irresponsable for MNZ to allow these bikes on the track if they haven't been made potentually safe?

An interesting aside......the local V8 saloon car class subscribes to a perverse mentality.

They have to run control carburetors, pretty perverse in 2008

They also have to run cheap and nasty control shocks. The problem being that they went for the cheapest nastiest Koni shocks. There is no damping in bump ( compression ) So to ''hold'' the cars up in their stroke they run otherwise rather overstiff springs meaning they dont kerbstrike so well. But also because there is no bump damping they have little or no g out resistance. Lateral stability is so bad that they are sort of held firm by aggressive anti rollbar settings. Because the spring force is so high at ''full closed'' the rebound damping has to be very stiff / aggressive. Such very stiff damping builds shock heat VERY quickly especially on bumpy tracks such as Pukekohe. Fade happens very quickly and to watch these cars wobble around Pukekohe is woeful. When damping is so restricted hysterisis or delay in damping build up occurs, the shock cavitates inside. It may as well be full of air.

I know of at least one team that has spare sets of shocks that are refigerated and installed just prior to race start so that it gives the car a precious advantage for another lap or so before the dreaded fade sets in.

These shocks are also breaking all the time, irrespective of the stock car nature of this class. Cheap suspension, I think not. Some higher level and stronger shocks with proper bump damping curve, softer springing and some responsive external adjustments would actually save money over the course of a season or two, and the tyres wouldnt be overstressed so readily. Moreover the drivers and crews would be learning proper set up skills rather than fudging it.

[Robert Taylor]

You'll have to excuse my ignorance on this topic... but is it not feasable that a class is set up where riders lease their rides, all of which are the same type of machine, suspension, brakes, wheels tyres etc? Like the Porsche Cup.

Surely a manufacturer would get behind this along with other distributors to ensure the success of the class along with the ongoing development of the machine and most importantly the racer?

Maybe this has been tried before?

Seems like the fairest way of getting a control class, I know there are always those that 'bend' the rules and manage to find loopholes, that's never going to change, and to some degree nor should it, as that can sometimes be where a lot of the development comes from!

Yes it has been tried before but for whatever reasons that I am less than familiar with it wasnt subscibed well enough to continue. To a degree I think it may possibly challenge the argument that its all about cost????

[evol mas]

i think the pro twin class is great!!! just leave it how it is !! i have ridden with the standard suspension and it is crap but also raceable to a certian extent but personaly i think the shock is good bang for ya buck!! if you realy want something you will put everything asside to get it!! i am a 19 year old apprentice electrican therefore dont have the best income. i got a 10 grand loan from the bank to purchase my k7 sv650 and sold almost everything i owned to purchase all the preformance parts needed including my roadbike i dont spend any money on anything but my bike and riding/racing it. the point im trying to make is if i can afford it anyone can!! if you realy want to win you will make sacrafices NO EXCUSES!! unfortunatly i had a get together with the tirewall at ruapuna and broke my ankle otherwize i would have been at the pointy end of the feild. i think this class is a good class for learning this was my first season racing and toward the end of the winter series i was up there with glen williams (im sure he was just playing tho) and have recently gained a ride with the verry generious shaun harris riding his 600.(big thanks to every one whos helped along the way)and well done to Karl M on the tittle

[Ivan]

Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you get to 600 or production superbike level almost all of the work done at the track is about tyres and suspension settings, in order to find lap times. Thats why I think its important to learn suspension set up skills BEFORE you get to that level i.e on bikes with a much less intimidating level of power that will be more forgiving if you get the settings wrong.

Perhaps that is why 125 riders have done so well when they have moved up, because they have had some adjustments to play with, and in their own way 125 setup is critical.

Get the setup wrong on especially a Superbike and it can bite you, so to reinforce my point, suspension set up skills must be commenced in junior classes....

I agree on 125, I learned a few things atmanfield for the 125to play withf rom Shaun which helped alot people think 125s high maintenace bicycles

But they do require crucial settings to get them seconds.
Like putting later model forks in cause they have less travel gave the bike alot better feeling under brakes and on acceleration.
But then I was finding issues of the tire looking like it wasnt wearing properly turns out i had the preload on rear spring to soft.

But I agree with the fact you need to learn these things before getting on a 600 even on a 125 if you dont get these right youl find your going down

[slowpoke]

slowpoke I think I have a handle on your veiws now: There is no place for SV650s or ProTwin racing as New Zealand will never have any good racers if they learn to ride on these types of bikes right?

Not quite right. I love the idea of F3 just being a free for all, with weird and wonderful machinery coming to the fore and lateral thinking being rewarded. It hasn't totally worked out like that but hopefully things will change. Something needs to be in place for the Ken Macintosh's and John Britten's etc to let their imaginations run riot.

Pro Twins on the other hand is in a bit of no-mans land as far as I am concerned. There are already cheap options to get involved in racing and this is just another one to further dilute the quality of the field in the higher classes. Sure racers will learn some good stuff from the class but I just feel that we need to encourage racers to get into the premier classes where they will learn more, sooner.

NZ racers are already penalised by having to jump through a few extra hoops to "make it" on the world stage, and our Supersport and Superbike spec's are very low tech compared to most countries, so we need to give as much exposure to the little technology and the best race bikes we have as soon as possible.

Hey, I could be wrong, in fact according to my Mrs I usually am. My hat is most definitely off to anyone who is out there and racing no matter what they ride.

[GSVR]

i think the pro twin class is great!!! just leave it how it is !! i have ridden with the standard suspension and it is crap but also raceable to a certian extent but personaly i think the shock is good bang for ya buck!! if you realy want something you will put everything asside to get it!! i am a 19 year old apprentice electrican therefore dont have the best income. i got a 10 grand loan from the bank to purchase my k7 sv650 and sold almost everything i owned to purchase all the preformance parts needed including my roadbike i dont spend any money on anything but my bike and riding/racing it. the point im trying to make is if i can afford it anyone can!! if you realy want to win you will make sacrafices NO EXCUSES!! unfortunatly i had a get together with the tirewall at ruapuna and broke my ankle otherwize i would have been at the pointy end of the feild. i think this class is a good class for learning this was my first season racing and toward the end of the winter series i was up there with glen williams (im sure he was just playing tho) and have recently gained a ride with the verry generious shaun harris riding his 600.(big thanks to every one whos helped along the way)and well done to Karl M on the tittle

Bad luck on your ankle Sam. Don't have to say anything about your commitment to racing. But wow look at the sacrifices your've made. (10 grand loan and selling your roadbike). How many others made that effort?
Certainly not enough and now next season your not even going to race in ProTwin?

The cost of getting emulators and a good shock is not great when you look at total running costs. But all these things add up and what we are ending up with is just a lower spec F3 bike.

Doesn't matter how the rules went you'd still have some sort of debate. Like if powercommanders wets and tyre warmers were also not allowed there'd be people saying this is not right. Also if engines had to have a seal placed on them and only routine maintenace allowed to be carried out thered be an outcry from those that wanted to slot the cams and raise the compression then spend a few hundred on Dyno time to dail it all in....

Good luck in Supersport!

Not quite right. I love the idea of F3 just being a free for all, with weird and wonderful machinery coming to the fore and lateral thinking being rewarded. It hasn't totally worked out like that but hopefully things will change. Something needs to be in place for the Ken Macintosh's and John Britten's etc to let their imaginations run riot.

F3 is certainly not a free for all with some very restrictive rules concerning mainly the 4 valve twins. Considerations when building an F3 bike is how far you can take stuff without actually breaking the current interpretation of the rulebook.

The more I learn about F3 rules the less I seem to understand them.

Things like your not allowed to use race motors unless they come out of a dirtbike.
Airbox and filter must be OEM but you can do stuff to increase airflow?.
If you have a 250 twostroke you can't use 250GP parts on it.

And the very first paragraph of rules is one that really has me scratching my head.

And yes I am whinging online but is whats happening really doing the sport any good? Seems to me that what seems to have been an entry level low budget class is now a completely different beast. Lets hope the same thing doesn't happen to the Protwin class with more and more mods allowed until it becomes a very high tech expensive class..

[svr]

i think the pro twin class is great!!! just leave it how it is !! i have ridden with the standard suspension and it is crap but also raceable to a certian extent but personaly i think the shock is good bang for ya buck!! if you realy want something you will put everything asside to get it!! i am a 19 year old apprentice electrican therefore dont have the best income. i got a 10 grand loan from the bank to purchase my k7 sv650 and sold almost everything i owned to purchase all the preformance parts needed including my roadbike i dont spend any money on anything but my bike and riding/racing it. the point im trying to make is if i can afford it anyone can!! if you realy want to win you will make sacrafices NO EXCUSES!! unfortunatly i had a get together with the tirewall at ruapuna and broke my ankle otherwize i would have been at the pointy end of the feild. i think this class is a good class for learning this was my first season racing and toward the end of the winter series i was up there with glen williams (im sure he was just playing tho) and have recently gained a ride with the verry generious shaun harris riding his 600.(big thanks to every one whos helped along the way)and well done to Karl M on the tittle

Horay for Sam! - ProTwins is perfect because its accessible no matter what your station in life - if you want to do it badly enough you can find a way, and if you're any good it will show - can we agree on that? Motorbike racing should be grass-roots accessible i.e. its not `priviliged rich-boy' car racing and thank god for that. Sorry Robert your interests in this discussion diverge sharply from the racers who dont want to have to choose between the latest set of forks or food / rent etc. That is not `third world mentality' that is reality.
Yes 125's are great but most people dont fit / want to ride more normal bikes and No ProTwins wont produce proffesional level skills but it does has the potential to grow the general sport of roadracing which will cast a wider net for young talent who can then move on up e.g. Sam Love.
Lets stop bitching and get out and support the class!

[FROSTY:Me]

Question here folks --why did 250 production have the biggest entry levels of any class back in the 80's?
Yes those at the pointy end were stripping their bikes and "optimising" them
On the whole you could rock into a bike shop friday arvo.
spend saturday doing the legal stuff--sump wiring etc then race it on sunday.

[FROSTY:Me]

Of course someone could PERSONALLY sponsor a class at their own club.
Say ohh I dunno --650 production.

[Shaun]

I think the discussion on this class has been great so far really, and then we get input from SAM LOVE on it, ( ANd other riders) who is committed and has spent his own money Clap Clap Clap Powl

Fact, if you want to race just for fun? Stay in the club champs! Cheep cheep cheep

But if you want to give yourself the best shot, at turning your game of racing into a profession, like Dom Jones etc, step up to plate sorry crew, just as Sam and others have done!

Example of going racing seriously

I only ever started 21 races in NEW ZEALAND before I left, and went and moved to Japan, and tried to get a team to race for over there.
I had purchased a NEW Suzuki GSXR 750 which I raced in the first round of the WSB at manfeild, and trashed it DOH
I had spent a fortune on mod tuning the motor and suspension etc, as well as buying the bike, when I left to go to Japan, I owed $25-000 this was back in 1989

POINT BEING

AS Sam said, IF YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH, JUST GO AND GET IT.

SAM, your example is a huge part of why I have committed to support you on 600's mate

Commitment Commitment Proud to be a part of your future dude

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yeah, the interesting thing is that when you get to 600 or production superbike level almost all of the work done at the track is about tyres and suspension settings, in order to find lap times. Thats why I think its important to learn suspension set up skills BEFORE you get to that level i.e on bikes with a much less intimidating level of power that will be more forgiving if you get the settings wrong.

Perhaps that is why 125 riders have done so well when they have moved up, because they have had some adjustments to play with, and in their own way 125 setup is critical.

Get the setup wrong on especially a Superbike and it can bite you, so to reinforce my point, suspension set up skills must be commenced in junior classes....

How does one learn these suspension setup skills? Presumably a lot of it is from the "suck it and see" approach? Ooooh what happens if I turn this?

Surely there must be some background material available so we can find out whats happening, then what the controls do, then how altering them will affect performance. Then try it out and see how it works.... I think its called the scientific method: develop a hypothesis, test it, evaluate conclusions....

[Shaun]

How does one learn these suspension setup skills? Presumably a lot of it is from the "suck it and see" approach? Ooooh what happens if I turn this?


I fully agree with you on this one!

Surely there must be some background material available so we can find out whats happening, then what the controls do, then how altering them will affect performance. Then try it out and see how it works.... I think its called the scientific method: develop a hypothesis, test it, evaluate conclusions....

There is so much back ground material out there to read, that after most have read it, they are more confused than when they started, the we get WEB SITES with so called experts, who tell ya all what to do, and like sheep, some follow.

I am a true believer, in adjust and ride your self, ( Very IMPORTANT to record start settings, and all other adjustments, so you can go back if need be) and write your self a pile of notes of how the bike fealt different, and keep trying.

[codgyoleracer]

There is so much back ground material out there to read, that after most have read it, they are more confused than when they started, the we get WEB SITES with so called experts, who tell ya all what to do, and like sheep, some follow.

I am a true believer, in adjust and ride your self, ( Very IMPORTANT to record start settings, and all other adjustments, so you can go back if need be) and write your self a pile of notes of how the bike fealt different, and keep trying.

I support Shauns comment, - Write EVERYTHING down suspensionwise. Other things also have an effect, condition of tyres, condition of track, track temp & day temp, Your own mind-set on the day etc etc.
I great deal of club racers do not seem to bother with recording settings (be it with stock suspension or aftermarket stuff) & analyzing that afterwards (or the next time your at the same track). The problem is that there is a plethora of reasons why you might go at XYZ speed around a race track, - but in a class such as pro-twins where modifications are limited & the machine performance is very close - getting the bike "dialled in" as quickly as possible will help eek out that little bit of an advantage that might help you stay ahead of the others.
GlenW

[FROSTY:Me]

What they said--Im gobsmacksed that a lot of folk dont have a log book
information like tyres ,gearing,fuel load,suspension settings just don't seem to be recorded.