Half-a-billion dollar "Treelord" settlement

[McJim]

And now they eat our butter and beef!

How short sighted of them.

Yeah but it also opened huge markets for the Americans to sell their Fried Chicken and their Burgers and Coke!

[sAsLEX]

Yeah but it also opened huge markets for the Americans to sell their Fried Chicken and their Burgers and Coke!

The British are to blame for beer though..... not sure who invented meths?

[EJT]

Or the French, for that matter.

I think it's quite telling that the Brits chose to offer a Treaty instead of simply rocking up and kicking the living shit out of the natives.

a) they genuinely did think twice about taking on a warrior race with a liking for violence honed by years of killing each other, or b) New Zealand was a hell of a long way away and trying to conduct overseas missions when re-inforcements were six months away seemed a bad idea.

Anyone else got any theories?

I'm struggling to recall when the British ever rocked on up to a new land with its military might and kicked the living shit out the the natives. Is that like an 18th century version of D-Day? Usually it went something along the lines of discovery/missionaries/settlers/empty promises/disease/land grab/the odd battle/confiscation/laws...

Maybe they signed a treaty because they finally realised that the savages weren't the natives.

[Steam]

The British are to blame for beer though..... not sure who invented meths?

I understand the ancient Egyptians invented beer in about 3500 BC. Quite similar recipe to what we have now. Someone decipered some heiroglypics or something just a few years ago and made some to the original 5500 year old recipe.

[McJim]

I understand the ancient Egyptians invented beer in about 3500 BC. Quite similar recipe to what we have now. Someone decipered some heiroglypics or something just a few years ago and made some to the original 5500 year old recipe.

Priceless! Gie us a pint o' Tuhtenkhamen and a packet of Pork scratchings

[98tls]

Priceless! Gie us a pint o' Tuhtenkhamen and a packet of Pork scratchings

You sir get nothing but cordial,for that matter cordial in a smallish but nimble glass,well as nimble as a glass can be.

[Sanx]

Maybe they signed a treaty because they finally realised that the savages weren't the natives.

Yes, very deep.

I'm struggling to recall when the British ever rocked on up to a new land with its military might and kicked the living shit out the the natives. Is that like an 18th century version of D-Day? Usually it went something along the lines of discovery/missionaries/settlers/empty promises/disease/land grab/the odd battle/confiscation/laws...

Hmm, India, Egypt, the Sudan, Kenya, Hong Kong and parts of South Africa all spring to mind. The Indian Raj, weakened during the preceeding 60 years or so, was finally defeated during several monumental battles during the late 1850s and 1860s following the 1857 Sepoy Rebellion. Egypt was siezed to ensure control of the anglo-french funded Suez Canal, and Sudan was invaded to ensure control over the whole Nile valley. Hong Kong was siezed during the 1st Opium War. South Africa was invaded and occupied by the military to ensure the Boer didn't cause too many problems to the increasing number of Britons settling there. Sure, there were settlers and traders there first (the British empire was primarily a trading empire after all), but when Britain decided it wanted the place for itself, it generally went in and took it.

[Forest]

Or the French, for that matter.

I think it's quite telling that the Brits chose to offer a Treaty instead of simply rocking up and kicking the living shit out of the natives. 1840. Napolean had been well and truly beaten and had died in exile. The little spat in America was a generation ago. With the exception of a couple of little spats in Egypt and the truly disasterous occupation of Afghanistan (all together now: "history, never repeats ..."), the Brits were relatively comfortable militarily. The British navy was at the height of its powers, and the army was still basking in the reflected glory of having kicked the crap out of everyone that had made the mistake of opposing them.

Despite this, Britain didn't adopt it's usual native-handling strategy and chose to offer a treaty. I really don't know why this happened, but I can only think of two possibilities: a) they genuinely did think twice about taking on a warrior race with a liking for violence honed by years of killing each other, or b) New Zealand was a hell of a long way away and trying to conduct overseas missions when re-inforcements were six months away seemed a bad idea.

Anyone else got any theories?

The reasons why the British signed the Treaty is basically spelled out in the preamble section:

Her Majesty Victoria, Queen of England in Her gracious consideration for the chiefs and people of New Zealand, and her desire to preserve to them their land and to maintain peace and order amongst them, has been pleased to appoint an officer to treat with them for the cession of the Sovreignty[sic] of their country and of the islands adjacent to the Queen. Seeing that many of Her Majesty’s subjects have already settled in the country and are constantly arriving; And that it is desirable for their protection as well as the protection of the natives to establish a government amongst them.

Her Majesty has accordingly been pleased to appoint me William Hobson a captain in the Royal Navy to be Governor of such parts of New Zealand as may now or hereafter be ceided[sic] to her Majesty and proposes to the chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand and the other chiefs to agree to the following articles.-

Queen Victoria personally requested that a treaty be prepared and signed. This request followed her displeasure at the wholesale slaughter of Aboriginals in Tasmania in the early 19th century (a subject which was raised in British newspapers of the time).

[Forest]

Agreed Sir....Native American Indians etc etc...

What I don't get is that the Treaty was with the Crown not the NZ Govt...

Think about it.

The New Zealand Government didn't come into existence until after the Treaty had been signed. You cannot sign a Treaty with something that doesn't exist, hence the Treaty was signed by a representative of the Crown.

[Sanx]

The reasons why the British signed the Treaty is basically spelled out in the preamble section:

Queen Victoria personally requested that a treaty be prepared and signed. This request followed her displeasure at the wholesale slaughter of Aboriginals in Tasmania in the early 19th century (a subject which was raised in British newspapers of the time).

The preamble says nothing about stopping the French getting a foothold, which was another very important reason at the time...

[avgas]

In 1840 Maori numbered about 200,000.
In 1896 Maori numbered 42,113.

Show me the bones to prove it!

[avgas]

Hell they invented, and did extrodinarily well at, trench warfare!

Er no.....Maori history dictates that they were good at Honest in your face war.
Hense Pa-s on top of big vacant hills.
Guerrilla came about because they had to be less obvious for bullets.
And the almost 80% of those battles were tribe against tribe!

[MisterD]

but when Britain decided it wanted the place for itself, it generally went in and took it.

That generally only happened if it was the only option to maintain or protect trade - the whole Indian campaign only came about after Napoleon started stirring things up to weaken British trade, which was the same reason we ended up in Spain and Portugal. The difference between those two conflicts was that in example a) the French spent money to coerce the natives into opposition and in example b) they tried to go the invasion route themselves.

[ManDownUnder]

And Moa one of their food sources numbered Zero......

OK I have a counter grievance I want to claim... But for the actions of some I would have been able to enjoy Moa wandering the hillsides,a dn would have opened a fantadtic fast food, meat processing and export business which would have absolutely skyrocketed NZ exports and my personal profits thanks to the recent signing of the open trade agreement with our dear friends in China.

But alas that is no more.... I'm out of pocket to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

Who do I ring?

[Steam]

OK I have a counter grievance I want to claim... But for the actions of some I would have been able to enjoy Moa wandering the hillsides,a dn would have opened a fantadtic fast food, meat processing and export business which would have absolutely skyrocketed NZ exports and my personal profits thanks to the recent signing of the open trade agreement with our dear friends in China.

But alas that is no more.... I'm out of pocket to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

Who do I ring?

Sorry sucka, you didn't sign a contract or treaty guaranteeing you the Moa.