2005 600cc Sport production results

[slowpoke]

As much as a level playing field would be nice, in reality it's a myth...unless you go race something like the R6 Cup in the UK, and even then you still hear the bleating about some motor or other being a poofteenth offsong.
In reality, you've just gotta get on and do the best you can with what you've got. Spitting the dummy in the dirt and storming off may be an option for some but realistically it's sorting the "couldabeenchampions" from the "willbechampions". Even as a top level factory racer sooner or later you are going to end up on a bike that isn't quite on the pace and the decision has to be made whether you are going to persevere or give up. By striving for total equality you are just delaying the inevitable when it comes to getting out amongst the serious championships.

My guess is Craig would have given his left nut to do the full season on the not-quite-competitive Suzuki 600 in Oz last year...whereas if others applied the same philosophy they do to their "uncompetitive" rides in NZ they would be no-shows. There's more to being a champion than just being freaky fast and that sums up why Craig, Stroudy and co are champions, 'cos they just get about extracting as much as they can from what they've got.

Sure it must be frustrating to rock up thinking" if only I had the machinery..." but that is the story for just about every racer, in every championship the world over. That's why Franky Chili leading the WSBK championship on his mongrel 999/998 hybrid , or Russel Holland in Oz taking it to the factory boys was so impressive. They mightn't have gone on to win the championships but everyone sat up and took notice. Holland is now racing in WSBK (on another uncompetitive bike) but I doubt he'll be complaining, he'll just be glad to be amongst it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a big field of local racers on similar spec machines but in the big scheme of things there is no such thing as equality or a level playing field, every rider and team are out there trying to exploit every advantage they can find.

[cowpoos]

As much as a level playing field would be nice, in reality it's a myth...unless you go race something like the R6 Cup in the UK, and even then you still hear the bleating about some motor or other being a poofteenth offsong.
In reality, you've just gotta get on and do the best you can with what you've got. Spitting the dummy in the dirt and storming off may be an option for some but realistically it's sorting the "couldabeenchampions" from the "willbechampions". Even as a top level factory racer sooner or later you are going to end up on a bike that isn't quite on the pace and the decision has to be made whether you are going to persevere or give up. By striving for total equality you are just delaying the inevitable when it comes to getting out amongst the serious championships.

My guess is Craig would have given his left nut to do the full season on the not-quite-competitive Suzuki 600 in Oz last year...whereas if others applied the same philosophy they do to their "uncompetitive" rides in NZ they would be no-shows. There's more to being a champion than just being freaky fast and that sums up why Craig, Stroudy and co are champions, 'cos they just get about extracting as much as they can from what they've got.

Sure it must be frustrating to rock up thinking" if only I had the machinery..." but that is the story for just about every racer, in every championship the world over. That's why Franky Chili leading the WSBK championship on his mongrel 999/998 hybrid , or Russel Holland in Oz taking it to the factory boys was so impressive. They mightn't have gone on to win the championships but everyone sat up and took notice. Holland is now racing in WSBK (on another uncompetitive bike) but I doubt he'll be complaining, he'll just be glad to be amongst it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a big field of local racers on similar spec machines but in the big scheme of things there is no such thing as equality or a level playing field, every rider and team are out there trying to exploit every advantage they can find.

Bloody good post spud!!

[GSVR]

This thread seems to be getting further off topic. Shauns original idea was to try and make 600s more affordable to younger racers who don't all happen to have 35 grand or so to do a season. Having a slightly faster bike and being flat broke isn't going to help them last in the sport.

Good example here may be to ask why aren't NZ V8's the same spec as Ozzy V8's. The answer is the NZ V8 field would probably end up being just one car strong. TKR.

Thinking a bit on why front supension mods are allowed in the production classes maybe in the past people have been suspected of running modified suspension and because it is such a pain to check and enforce it was decided to let people do what they wanted to the internals. In the past it may have just been a bit of tweaking or adding some relatively low cost components. Now it seems the cost of upgrading the front suspension is not so cheap.

Edit here:
Just did a search and now a know what an em-pro is .... And they aren't that cheap are they,

[cowpoos]

empro

http://www.yoshimura-jp.com/en/kitparts/empro.html

[slowpoke]

This thread seems to be getting further off topic. Shauns original idea was to try and make 600s more affordable to younger racers who don't all happen to have 35 grand or so to do a season. Having a slightly faster bike and being flat broke isn't going to help them last in the sport.

I think the point is that even with a bog stock 600 you can still make an impression if you are good enough.

Witness Jay Lawrence at the Manfield Nationals round 2 seasons ago. The guy borrows an unfamiliar virtually stock R6 when his ZX6R shits itself the day before and comes I think it was 5th overall on the day. His sponsors tyres aren't at the top of most racer's shopping list either. I'm sure that most of the bikes behind him would have been much less standard than his stock R6.

[Shaun]

I think the point is that even with a bog stock 600 you can still make an impression if you are good enough.

Witness Jay Lawrence at the Manfield Nationals round 2 seasons ago. The guy borrows an unfamiliar virtually stock R6 when his ZX6R shits itself the day before and comes I think it was 5th overall on the day. His sponsors tyres aren't at the top of most racer's shopping list either. I'm sure that most of the bikes behind him would have been much less standard than his stock R6.

Well said Slowpoke! your example is an awsome case, YES Jay had lots of prior experience, but as Andrew S and He has done very simmilar things with So called Std gear.

Brian B and Dave C selling there units so quickly is fantastic, BUT the truth be known, YAMAHA or another sponsor actually paid for them, at a seriously discounted price to begin with, and Probally paid for all the trick parts on these bikes as well!- so there sales of Factory supported bikes is a good indication of the sales market, but has NO Real relevince to the PRIVATEER really.

I am just trying to help find a way to grow our sport even more, if there are any others with thoughts on this, please Post on here

[R1madness]

If what you say is true which I dont imagine Suzuki saying such a thing as they would like as many of there bikes up the grid as possible it still only relates to superbikes anyway not the 600 class. Buy a motor from Phill Taiton in OZ he builds what ever you are prepared to pay for and would be at a similar cost to get ray to build one.
This years 600 was the same as last years one so I dont get your point there? of course they wont work on the new bike its a different bike.
So anyone thats pulling out of 600s because you cant get a factory motor they dont exsist in the 600 class so keep in there and work hard and all the superbike boys if you can get a motor within 15hp of the top boys trust me its good enough to win on and alot easier to ride

Suzuki told him that they would not even cut the shop he buys the bike from (not me, an official Suzuki dealer) a deal so that he can get it at a better price than the dealers cost he had been offered (by the shop). I thought it was odd but maybe they think they have enough front runners?

Yea i agree a slightly lower hp bike with a better spread of power is often better than a peaky motor. Cheers for the tip on the aussie motor builder. Could you post his contact details so others can get in touch with him?

Yes it was an inersia dyno but gearing had been factored.

[Robert Taylor]

I think the point is that even with a bog stock 600 you can still make an impression if you are good enough.

Witness Jay Lawrence at the Manfield Nationals round 2 seasons ago. The guy borrows an unfamiliar virtually stock R6 when his ZX6R shits itself the day before and comes I think it was 5th overall on the day. His sponsors tyres aren't at the top of most racer's shopping list either. I'm sure that most of the bikes behind him would have been much less standard than his stock R6.

Just so that there can be no confusion about that bike, the R6 ( at least then ) was the horsepower king so it was a pretty good platform to borrowand a much better bike than the Kawasaki. Also borrowed from Bernard racing ( very sporting of Brian ) was an Ohlins rear shock valved for the application and they came and borrowed a spring off me suitable for Jay. Nothing ever is quite as it seems and no disrespect to Jay but he was still an appreciable distance behind the leaders.

[Robert Taylor]

Suzuki told him that they would not even cut the shop he buys the bike from (not me, an official Suzuki dealer) a deal so that he can get it at a better price than the dealers cost he had been offered (by the shop). I thought it was odd but maybe they think they have enough front runners?

Yea i agree a slightly lower hp bike with a better spread of power is often better than a peaky motor. Cheers for the tip on the aussie motor builder. Could you post his contact details so others can get in touch with him?

Yes it was an inersia dyno but gearing had been factored.

Suzuki NZ spend a LOT on road racing in NZ and have done so for many years, that singular fact is very very commendable. But also, I can well understand where they have to draw the line. Industry insiders know only too damn well that without their massive commitment road racing in NZ would be ( and I am not sorry for saying this ) in the metaphorical dark ages. Its commendable also that YMNZ stepped up to join the party and Honda have a presence albeit tiny. The other remaining big 4 name has got back out of it what they have put in.
Indeed it wasnt so very many years ago that SNZ put a lot of money up to get a box stock SV650 series going, conforming to the low cost theme. There may have been several compounding factors but it ended up failing.
I have rather quickly skimmed through the posts on this thread and what is blindingly obvious is that there is very little comment from incumbent 600cc riders so there must be relatively little concern about the rules as they stand. This is one of the two elite classes and should remain that way. If people wish to enter this class and race on stock suspension they need to realise that even 600s are overpowered for their standard suspenders. Heck, even at trackday level stock bikes will quickly screw their tyres even with the external settings optimised as much as is possible. To that end we are now geared up to offer upspecs of the standard suspension that will both improve the performance levels and improve tyre life. Not to the same standards as our beloved Ohlins suspenders but still very ''useful'', albeit nowhere near as easy as to work on.
Anyone who thinks they can race on hot grippy tracks with stock suspenders and not have issues that cannot be ignored is in denial. Therefore there is unavoidable cost.
I had eluded previously in another post that top shelf suspension components filter down at affordable second hand resale prices, at present I can identify several sets of very late model Ohlins TTX36 rear dampers,cartridge kits and steering dampers on the market.
We already have entry level classes such as pro twins and 125s, given sales of upspec parts recently these classes are going to be more well subscribed over the coming winter and summer seasons. We only have a small population and I think that it is important to not have too many fragmented classes. What is worthy though of a longer term look is the 450cc motocross based class that is getting up and running in the States. It has been very well discussed in another thread but my point is that if you want to get more dealers involved then this is not a major crossover from MX ( that involves many dealers ) But such bikes would have to be incorporated into Formula 3. BUT in the meantime the pro-twins class should get as much support as possible from all those within the industry. It may not be perfect but is a low cost entry level class that can provide great racing.
Relevant to our population base I see no reason to be concerned at the entry numbers for the nationals in 600 and Superbike.
Another key issue is bike setup and training. Access to quality information has for many years not been very easy to access, exacerbated by many top racers being very secretive and protective. Maybe they cannot be blamed but training riders and crews in set up techniques is one of the biggest single factors that will assist the growth of the sport. To that end my company is currently engaged in finalising some initiatives re same.

[Robert Taylor]

Well said Slowpoke! your example is an awsome case, YES Jay had lots of prior experience, but as Andrew S and He has done very simmilar things with So called Std gear.

Brian B and Dave C selling there units so quickly is fantastic, BUT the truth be known, YAMAHA or another sponsor actually paid for them, at a seriously discounted price to begin with, and Probally paid for all the trick parts on these bikes as well!- so there sales of Factory supported bikes is a good indication of the sales market, but has NO Real relevince to the PRIVATEER really.

I am just trying to help find a way to grow our sport even more, if there are any others with thoughts on this, please Post on here

Yes it does have relevance to the privateer because privateers have bought these bikes inclusive of trick upspec parts at very affordable prices. So Yamaha NZ for one are effectively helping the sport at two levels.

[Robert Taylor]

As much as a level playing field would be nice, in reality it's a myth...unless you go race something like the R6 Cup in the UK, and even then you still hear the bleating about some motor or other being a poofteenth offsong.
In reality, you've just gotta get on and do the best you can with what you've got. Spitting the dummy in the dirt and storming off may be an option for some but realistically it's sorting the "couldabeenchampions" from the "willbechampions". Even as a top level factory racer sooner or later you are going to end up on a bike that isn't quite on the pace and the decision has to be made whether you are going to persevere or give up. By striving for total equality you are just delaying the inevitable when it comes to getting out amongst the serious championships.

My guess is Craig would have given his left nut to do the full season on the not-quite-competitive Suzuki 600 in Oz last year...whereas if others applied the same philosophy they do to their "uncompetitive" rides in NZ they would be no-shows. There's more to being a champion than just being freaky fast and that sums up why Craig, Stroudy and co are champions, 'cos they just get about extracting as much as they can from what they've got.

Sure it must be frustrating to rock up thinking" if only I had the machinery..." but that is the story for just about every racer, in every championship the world over. That's why Franky Chili leading the WSBK championship on his mongrel 999/998 hybrid , or Russel Holland in Oz taking it to the factory boys was so impressive. They mightn't have gone on to win the championships but everyone sat up and took notice. Holland is now racing in WSBK (on another uncompetitive bike) but I doubt he'll be complaining, he'll just be glad to be amongst it.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a big field of local racers on similar spec machines but in the big scheme of things there is no such thing as equality or a level playing field, every rider and team are out there trying to exploit every advantage they can find.

So very true. If aftermarket suspension was banned we would be into the stock shocks like a robbers dog and have our shock dyno working overtime.

[gixerracer]

Suzuki told him that they would not even cut the shop he buys the bike from (not me, an official Suzuki dealer) a deal so that he can get it at a better price than the dealers cost he had been offered (by the shop). I thought it was odd but maybe they think they have enough front runners?

Yea i agree a slightly lower hp bike with a better spread of power is often better than a peaky motor. Cheers for the tip on the aussie motor builder. Could you post his contact details so others can get in touch with him?

Yes it was an inersia dyno but gearing had been factored.

Yep thats correct and when I or any other Suzuki NZ sponsored riders buy a bike so we have a spare we also pay dealer cost yes thats right folks we to purchase motorcycles so not everything is at it seems. If they were to sell bikes cheap to anyone who raced at a cheaper price it would be very unfair to there dealers.
And J rode fantastic on that R6 at manfeild I raced all of the first race with him and he beat me in the 2nd the R6 was bog stock except for rear shock and tyres and gearing and the bloddy thing was as fast as my bike I was racing with a injured arm but he went very well and the laps times will back it up.

[oyster]

Just a small correction, in my opinion, Robert. 125GP and Pro Twin are not entry level classes but "intermediate"
ALL of the current young ones in the NZ road racing scene doing well entered through Young Junior Road Race, Miniature Road Race and/or Streetstock.
These are the entry classes with the very low cost platform that still allows a huge amount of rider development prior to moving on to 125GP / Pro Twin.
If people are worried about "bang for buck" in a rider development sense, then get on a Streetstock bike, come to the South Island and break all the lap records. Then you're ready to move up.... Not before

[Shaun]

So very true. If aftermarket suspension was banned we would be into the stock shocks like a robbers dog and have our shock dyno working overtime.

Hey Rob, NO where has it been suggested in this thread that AFTERMARKET suspension be banned!

It has been suggested, that we start a class with in a class, to HELP bring on younger 600 riders, for a shit load less money out lay, That is all, nothing sinister in here at all

but hey, I dont care if you lick windows, interfare with farm animals, vote Labour or occasionally shit yourself...you hang in there sun shine, you are dam special

[Robert Taylor]

Just a small correction, in my opinion, Robert. 125GP and Pro Twin are not entry level classes but "intermediate"
ALL of the current young ones in the NZ road racing scene doing well entered through Young Junior Road Race, Miniature Road Race and/or Streetstock.
These are the entry classes with the very low cost platform that still allows a huge amount of rider development prior to moving on to 125GP / Pro Twin.
If people are worried about "bang for buck" in a rider development sense, then get on a Streetstock bike, come to the South Island and break all the lap records. Then you're ready to move up.... Not before

I can only agree with you 100%.