(un)Sensing Murder

[Number One]

group hug!

THIS thread is like so 4 or so hours ago

[fire eyes]

hey I not long got home from work! hahahahaha .. so Im still a day behind! .. aww come here and gimme a hug gurley lol

[Sanx]

Funny that. There isn't one credible scientific examination that proves there is a God either, yet how many squillions of people believe that God is real?

Which simply shows that a vast number of people can selectively choose to ignore those parts of their brain that give them the power of reason and logic.

[James Deuce]

They should go to the Scottish thread and talk about their imaginary friends.

[sels1]

Which simply shows that a vast number of people can selectively choose to ignore those parts of their brain that give them the power of reason and logic.

Which of course applies to people on both sides of the debate. Just because something cant be proved in a laboratory, it does not mean it dosent exist. Thoughts are a prime example....what you are thinking cannot be measured or proven, but you know it exists.

[Badjelly]

And last, but certainly not least, there isn't one credible scientific examination that has shown any evidence of psychic abilities, whether it's communicating with spirits of the dead or being able to conjure up winning lotto numbers. Not one.

Funny that. There isn't one credible scientific examination that proves there is a God either, yet how many squillions of people believe that God is real?

Goblin, Sanx used the words "shown any evidence of", you used "proved [the existence of]" . Not the same thing.

[Badjelly]

Ouch guys. Perhaps we should all back away slowly from the thread with our hands in plain sight.

This thread is tending to go Scottish

Just because I know I am right doesn't give me the right to be-little people with other viewpoints.(does it?)

I think your right (and mine) to belittle other people's viewpoints is undisputable (but I'm sorry I can't claim any divine backing for claiming this right). Whether & when we choose to do it is another matter.

[Sanx]

Which of course applies to people on both sides of the debate. Just because something cant be proved in a laboratory, it does not mean it dosent exist. Thoughts are a prime example....what you are thinking cannot be measured or proven, but you know it exists.

Given the logical impossibility of proving an absence of something, you're right in stating that because it cannot be proved in a laboratory doesn't ecessarily mean it doesn't exist. This is the backbone of most arguments from the woo and religious community.

Except that with each advance in science, what we can and cannot measure and quantify improves. The example you gave - thought - can be measured to a certain extent. Science can measure levels of brain activity and the location of such activity within the brain. Science understands the methods by which thought moves through the brain, the chemicals involved and what the different areas of the brain do. So, in many respects, science can measure thought but recording a thought or observing a thought from the outside and decoding it is not possible, yet. Much of that has to do though with the sheer difficulty in placing the recording apparatus with sufficient proximity to the specific neural pathways, whilst still keeping the test subject alive and capable of the thought one's trying to measure.

But going back to the prize offered by the James Randi foundation, and the theme of the Christopher Brookmyre book I mentioned, not once has any evidence of psychic ability been demonstrated in controlled conditions, despite the people being tested having claimed the ability and claimed they can demonstrate it. The similarities between what psychics and clerics claim are marked. But psychics and clerics have got a little bit cleverer these days; often their claims are couched in the most nebulous language and getting them to pin down what they actually mean can prove as impossible as getting them to back up their claims with cold hard facts.

[sels1]

Except that with each advance in science, what we can and cannot measure and quantify improves. The example you gave - thought - can be measured to a certain extent. Science can measure levels of brain activity and the location of such activity within the brain. Science understands the methods by which thought moves through the brain, the chemicals involved and what the different areas of the brain do. So, in many respects, science can measure thought .

Science can measure brain activity but cannot measure whether I am thinking of what I want for dinner, or having a mental picture of my bike. That is a whole different realm of consciousness science cannot reach

[Badjelly]

Science can measure brain activity but cannot measure whether I am thinking of what I want for dinner, or having a mental picture of my bike. That is a whole different realm of consciousness science cannot reach

Science admits ignorance, religion makes stuff up and says "God told me". What do you do about these whole different realms of consciousness?

I can't observe other people's thoughts (as far as I am aware) but I am inclined to think these thoughts exist because of what these people say and do. On the whole, people seem to act as if they are thinking thoughts similar to the ones that I have had the subjective sensation of experiencing. Sometimes I try to infer what people are thinking based on my observations of what they say and do, plus my experience. Science helps a little here by showing, for example, that when people see pornographic images, they tend to exhibit increased activity in a specific area of the brain, one that is now called the Phwooar area.

[Sanx]

Science can measure brain activity but cannot measure whether I am thinking of what I want for dinner, or having a mental picture of my bike. That is a whole different realm of consciousness science cannot reach

... whole different realm of consciousness science cannot reach ... yet. Which as I said is complicated by the difficulty of placing sensors close enough the the neural pathways in the brain without disrupting them, and the obvious unwillingness of test subjects to submit themselves to such tests. There have been tests that have demonstrated an ability to determine whether a subject is touching something that is hot or cold and whether they're tasting something sweet, sour, bitter or salty. And those tests have been carried out under strict double-blind protocol. As science's understanding of the brain gets better, there is no reason why at some point in the future it will not be possible to determine what you want for dinner or what bike you're thinking about. Though with me personally, establishing what I want for dinner would be difficult 'cos half the time I really don't care, provided it's edible.

But in a way comparing the existence of thought to the existence of ghosties, ghoulies or deities is a bit pointless. There is no argument as to whether humans possess the capability for thought. There is an argument over whether or not spirits exist, god exists and if they do, whether anyone is capable of communicating with them. Given that I and many others cannot communicate with gods or spirits, if someone else wants to tell me that they can and that I should accept they can and that I should respect their beliefs and practices, then it is up to them to prove that spirits or gods do exist and they really can communicate with them. If they can't, then their claims should be given no more credence than the insane deluded rantings of the mentally ill.

[wybmadiity]

A few years ago there was a young guy go missing. Kelvin new where a body was and told the police. It was very hard for him to do because of sceptics who would point the finger at him, he was scared and rightly so that he would get the blame. All this happened before the show existed.
Not getting involved in the argument, just my 2 cents.

1. Have they EVER found a missing body?

[Sanx]

A few years ago there was a young guy go missing. Kelvin new where a body was and told the police. It was very hard for him to do because of sceptics who would point the finger at him, he was scared and rightly so that he would get the blame. All this happened before the show existed.
Not getting involved in the argument, just my 2 cents.

Any external references to this happening? Media reports, etc.?

[wybmadiity]

There was a big thing about the missing guy, not sure it ever came about how they found him though... can't remember

Any external references to this happening? Media reports, etc.?

[scumdog]

A few years ago there was a young guy go missing. Kelvin new where a body was and told the police. It was very hard for him to do because of sceptics who would point the finger at him, he was scared and rightly so that he would get the blame. All this happened before the show existed.
Not getting involved in the argument, just my 2 cents.

More detail:

Where

How long ago

Circumstances - i.e. a lost person, a suicide, a murder victim

Name if possible.