NZ employers...

[slowpoke]

Not surprisingly it's all those of the non child bearing sex who have the biggest problem with this whole notion ...when the time comes that the boys can grow and carry the babies (wouldn't that be effing fantastic) then we should be sure to ensure that all the same logic and rules apply that they are suggesting...wonder if the tune would change then?

Aaaaah, the old "you can't have children you'll never understand" philosophy

What the hell has gender got to do with it? This could be a mother or father who was wanting this dispensation and the same responses would apply. I honestly can't believe that you've played this card actually, I reckon a father would be given much shorter shrift than a mother with this request, so women are actually getting favourable treatment.

Here's another philosophy for you: we can't always have what we want. It's not very fair, it's not very pleasant but that 's just life.

[Ocean1]

Which point is probably a red herring; more useful perhaps to ponder whether a female who would claim equality and speak against men in public should expect a softer rebuttal than a man would receive for the same words.

Useful to who? What she expects wouldn't have much influence on the ideal gent's behaviour. As succinct a description of civilised man as any I've heard.

The weaker sex cannot expect both a right to irrational presumptuousness and a right to special consideration. The abandonment of one is what earns the other.

They can from me. Less a comment on my ideals, perhaps, than the way I was dragged up. Still, if there's credt to be had I'll take it.

[jrandom]

They can from me. Less a comment on my ideals, perhaps, than the way I was dragged up.

Have you considered that the implicit distinction you thus draw between the sexes could be construed as far more of an insult than any acid-tongued conversational slapdown?

Then again, perhaps the ideals of feminism were indeed misplaced. Certainly, your average Twenty-First Century Woman seems to have lost sight of them. Perhaps the return to more genteel days which you advocate wouldn't be a bad thing overall.

[YOUTUBE]SjxY9rZwNGU[/YOUTUBE]

[Her_C4]

.....are cr@p at offering flexible working arrangements - cr@p, cr@p, cr@p -

Good God/ess REALLY? Truely? I offer flexible working hours where I can to both men and women - in return for ... well return for my money really, including committment, loyalty and timely / appropriate outputs.

Its nothing to do with technology - its normally about how they want that role utilized.

Good answer - there are some roles that I would not provide that level of flexibility for. It has more to do with the role than the person. Many jobs simply cannot be effectively done from home, regardless of the technology available.

Doing the job I do, I can't just go to any old company and my skills are not transferrable to another role (nor can I afford to move out of my field and take a massive pay cut).

Soooo I know this has been asked before - and without having a hissy fit tell us what you DO - that can be done at home? You have come on KB and denounced all NZ employers across the board without giving the full story.

It sounds like you do need someone to talk to Jude.

Good post. The original post appears to be more of need to yell, scream, shout at anyone - - and everyone. I am not sure you have gone about it the right way if genuine help is what you are after?

You give the employer a list of demands and they will say no!, you give them a list of requests and negotiate with them then they are likely to say yes to some of your request's.

Absolutely right. It is a negotiated process, and often the employer (who has offered and is paying for a full time permanent position) is put in a position where they are being asked to accept less than either asked or paid for - and then get dumped on for it.

Scheduled breaks

Umm I know that both myself and my employees are entitled to scheduled breaks, but because of the nature of the work and the timing it is often not an option... I often try and provide some flexibility in return, but if employees are going to hang their hats on their 'rights' every five minutes I am not going to go out of my way to agree to flexibility. In fact I believe I probably hold as close to the contract as they do.

I suspect that anyone in their right mind knows that a mother with a baby 'working from home' will be about the least productive individual imaginable. No wonder they don't want to pay for it.

Actually, as much as it pains me, this is indeed a reality. Being a mother myself and trying to work from home years ago, the pull on your time and focus is immense. Please don't try and tell me that the work comes first because it doesn't (and shouldn't). When you are at home children / family should always come first.

Aaaaah, the old "you can't have children you'll never understand" philosophy

What the hell has gender got to do with it? This could be a mother or father who was wanting this dispensation and the same responses would apply. I honestly can't believe that you've played this card actually, I reckon a father would be given much shorter shrift than a mother with this request, so women are actually getting favourable treatment.

Here's another philosophy for you: we can't always have what we want. It's not very fair, it's not very pleasant but that 's just life.

Well in my opinion, gender has NOTHING to do with it. I currently have a male employee who takes off one day a week to be with his baby girl. He gives me everything he can (and more.... I am a hard task master) on the other four and gets home too late to spend any quality time. I can empathise as my children had no father around (his choice) and suffered for it.

And no - we can't always get what we want can we... sad but true. However I strongly believe that it shouldn't stop us trying.

Either find a new employer or find out what assurances or conditions that your employer wants from you before they will agree to your conditions. I don't know the other half of the story (and there always IS one), but if you are in such a specialised field and your skills are in such demand, then go contracting and work whatever hours and for whatever pay you choose.

Hope you manage to get some rest and sleep shortly - it all helps the thinking processes Sorry, but my babystitting skills are rusty or I would offer to help out for a night or two

[Ocean1]

Have you considered...

If there’s a valid distinction to be made it’s between those who both have a working understanding of how they can best address the world and the will to do so, and those who do not.

Given my earlier reticence in discussing those not so blessed you may take what you will from the fact that, while this might be the point at which one might normally be expected to comment on the ideals of feminism, I haven’t.

[Oakie]

Ahhhh, you're an HR Lady.

That explains a lot.

Ever had a real job?

'ere! I'm in HR too and I can assure you it's a real job.

[cs363]

Content edited to save space on KB! Look back a few posts to see original

Agreed 100% - Good well considered post!

[Number One]

Aaaaah, the old "you can't have children you'll never understand" philosophy.

First of all - good bite - here fishy fishy fishy!!!!
On the note of the actual point I was trying to make behind my wee shit stir (which was clearly just too subtle)..you will never concince me (or probably any mother for that matter) that the physical and emotional demands of 'pregnancy and early motherhood' are balanced and shared across the sexes equally. SO on that point gender has everything to do with it.

Note the difference between a new mother and a new father. Yes dads are a bit tired from baby waking in the night and possibly having to support their lady more so than usual but the physical and emotional exhaustion that the mother goes through during preganancy, labour and that first couple of years is NOT minor...dads really do get off light on this one - no really THEY DO.

Productive working mothers are supported working mothers. The OP made it clear too that she is not asking for something that others are not getting.

I do agree that the ability to work and be productive from home is relevant to the role AND in some cases the person AND the technology available. It isn't an option for some and that is just reality.

The original post appears to be more of need to yell, scream, shout at anyone - - and everyone. I am not sure you have gone about it the right way if genuine help is what you are after?

.....without having a hissy fit tell us what you DO - that can be done at home?

As always KB comes to the OP with sarcasm, name calling and put downs Such a great place this is.

I too read the first post as a scream and a yell...and I saw it as a vent and a blow off and a 'shit this is tough and I am finding things hard'. I clearly saw it required a little compassion and not the typical pick over the bones of the argument and play the I'm right and your wrong and I'm cleverer than everyone else on here responses that are so typical to this place at times. Genuine help from KB seems an oxymoron to me. There are some absolute gems on here but unfortunately they are leaving the place in droves or are well outweighed by all the 'others'.

The above comments are not aimed at any one poster specifically...so don't have a hissy fit ok?

[Number One]

I understand that my approach in this thread has annoyed you, but that doesn't change the fact that my points were valid, does it?

Actually it's your general approach that annoys me...much as mine annoys you.

If you want to publicly disagree with me and get some traction

Actually I can disagree with you in whatever manner I like. I don't have the energy to bother trying to debate things out properly with you...what's the point afterall?

I have an opinion formed and based on my own experiences of the world and that differs from yours - SO? I also can't be arsed working to word my points perfectly just to 'win' in a disagreement with someone who actually has no bearing on my life and whoms opinion I don't really value to begin with. This is just an online forum I actually do my living in the real world.

[jrandom]

Actually it's your general approach that annoys me...

So you do, in fact, accept that I'm right?

Well then, you're welcome to be as annoyed as you like.

I don't have the energy to bother trying to debate things out properly...

I noticed!

Anyhoo. Point remains: You gotta be worth what an employer pays you, and distracted, hormonal, only-partially-available breeding females are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to productivity.

good bite - here fishy fishy fishy!!!!

Refusing to back your own words is a coward's trick.

Do you actually mean anything you write in these discussions?

This is just an online forum I actually do my living in the real world.

O RLY?

[Mom]

...distracted, hormonal, only-partially-available breeding females are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to productivity.

FFS Dan, that is insulting to any woman that has had children!

I managed to have 3 kids under five. During those first 5 years of motherhood I owned and operated a shop with my husband, was on the local Kindy committee, was the Treasurer of the Kindy Assn overseeing 7 kindergartens and formulationg and managing the budget for the newly introduced Bulk Funding.

We did not have daycare available to fall back on and I had no family near to assist me. My husband never once got up at night to help out, one of my lovelies did not sleep through the night till he was well over 2, there were plenty of times I had 2 kids up at night, the baby feeding and a toddler just whinging and whining.

Your blanket chauvanism really is offensive.

I agree with you that employees have to be productive, and that no emplyer should have to pay for anything less than 100% from their staff. However having been an emplyer for nearly 30 years it is my experience that you get the best out of your staff when you are actually interested in supporting them to achieve 100%. You can not simply demand it. Give and take is what it is all about.

Working parents that have to do a hard day at the swamp and parent a family get my utmost respect. FWIW here, I think music class for a child that is still in nappies is ridiculous! Daycare have music and movement sort of programmes. My kids got music class in the car as I ferried them around, and at home where the music was always playing.

It is the expectations that some have on what their kids should be doing that is the problem mate. Fuck me I looked after a 14 month old child for a friend, he was staying the night away from home for the first time with strangers. He arrived with the most incredible amount of STUFF. I took him outside, filled a tub with water, gave him some pots and containers and a few spoons to bash stuff with. He had a ball. He did not need all the crap that his loving, well meaning mother knew he had to have to be happy.

[jrandom]

During those first 5 years of motherhood I owned and operated a shop with my husband, was on the local Kindy committee, was the Treasurer of the Kindy Assn...

Sounds like you were very busy and handled it well.

But you weren't actually employed, so to speak, were you? Volunteer work and assisting with a family business is a big load, to be sure, but it's a different scenario. The requisite flexibility exists as a given, since you're not in the process of fulfilling a contract with someone else.

... having been an emplyer for nearly 30 years it is my experience that you get the best out of your staff when you are actually interested in supporting them to achieve 100%. You can not simply demand it. Give and take is what it is all about.

Of course.

My point is that female employees who don't bring the same attitude to the table are going about things the wrong way.

And this thread's OP (and, for that matter, #1's subsequent comments) is an excellent example of females demanding what's good for them, rather than thinking about offering an attractive deal to their employer.

It's a shame that pointing out the obvious about the issues that women face in the workforce results in an accusation of chauvinism. Presumably, if I commented on the over-representation of Maoris in crime statistics, you'd be calling me racist?

[fireliv]

Hay Jude,

Hope things get better for ya workwise, and that your stress levels go down. It could be worse!!! Thats what I always think when I think my situation has gotten bad.

Good luck with sorting out your job etc, at least you have your son, and hopefully your health, and the rest is just detail after that.

[Mom]

But you weren't actually employed, so to speak, were you? Volunteer work and assisting with a family business is a big load, to be sure, but it's a different scenario.

Well I guess working 5 and a half days a week at the shop and doing the accounts and book keeping at home could be considered assisting in a family business if you really wanted to look at it that way.

Keep digging man, it is not getting any less insulting

[Storm]

I commented on the over-representation of Maoris in crime statistics, you'd be calling me racist?

You dirty racist bastard!!!!





Happy now?